• April 25, 2024, 9:08 a.m.

    It started a bit upthread, as follows:

    So, lets get the it straight. You did not call him a liar. On the other hand, when you said "The post was probably rightfully deleted because there might have been other posts in the subthread that also broke the rules" you implied quite strongly that he wasn't telling the full truth of the matter. I can see why Nigel took exception, though it was perhaps something of an over-reaction. And then you both escalate.
    Interesting, on the subject of the two moderators in question - Nigel is is right that many decent people had many problems with them both - but I put them in different categories. I got to understand how Mako works in the discussions around the impending DPReview closure, and his approach to moderation is honest and consistent. That's not to say that I agree with it at all, but I can understand where he's coming from. Caldwell is another kettle of fish entirely. So far as I can see he moderates for his own aggrandisement, plays to the crowd, and seeks to humiliate his victims in open forum.
    Incidentally, it also illustrates why unpaid, overworked moderators are likely sometimes to do a perfunctory job. It took me a while to track this dispute back to the origins and work out what had kicked it off. It strikes me that if people want fastidious and fair moderation they'll need to have a premium paid site.

  • April 25, 2024, 9:18 a.m.

    The tangent was entirely my fault. I chose to quibble about Danno's grammar, also trying to make a kind of joke.

    Not really, it's an illustrative discussion in the context of this thread. It shows how discussions (thankfully in this case not vituperative) can grow from almost nothing. For myself, diversions are one of the positives of forum discussions. Edited and curated content generally lacks it, and is sometimes the poorer for it.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 25, 2024, 10 a.m.

    That is exactly what I challenged him on and showed that his claim I called him a liar was not true.

    In the link I posted, NCV then went on to say "You are also stupid enough not to realize that doubting what I wrote is in effect calling me a liar." which implies quite strongly that NCV believes that anyone doubting what he posts is effectively calling him a liar.

    Below is the exchange between us that followed:

    It's no wonder NCV was banned over at DPR if he threw the same childish tanties over there as here and he wonders why DPR Admin do not reply to his queries as he posted earlier.

    My comment in that quote is still my opinion based on what I have seen of NCV's posts here and at DPR.

    Yep, pretty much agree.

    I posted several times earlier this thread that not all dpr moderators were created equal and that some are better than others.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 25, 2024, 10:31 a.m.

    That's fine and everyone can decide for themselves how much credibility they choose to assign to unsubstantiated claims but it doesn't change what I posted earlier at all.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 25, 2024, 11:31 a.m.
  • Members 1061 posts
    April 25, 2024, 12:27 p.m.

    So, I made a thread on the Site Feedback, asking why the Admins do not reply to questions about membership.

    Being Sandboxed, my thread has not appeared after more than a Day. Censored I guess.

  • April 25, 2024, 3:59 p.m.

    Mako moderates that forum and will never allow a thread like that. It violates his interpretation of the rules. As I say, not one I agree with, but consistent.

  • April 25, 2024, 4:02 p.m.

    The nature of his posting didn't change at all. He just changed his opinions on some things that made him seem like a turncoat to people of a particular frame of mind, and unhappily for him those people are the ones that the moderator sides with, encourages and cheer-leads.

  • Members 29 posts
    April 25, 2024, 4:11 p.m.

    I didn't bother to transcribe the entirety of Bernstein's discussion because I was lazy and didn't anticipate continued refusal to accept the word of a noted authority (how silly of me). Here's the remainder of Bernstein's entry on None:

    "One reason [to adopt the rule that none should be treated as plural unless context clearly indicates singular form] would be a construction in which it is followed by a singular noun: 'None of the work was done in time for the opening'; 'None of the food was served hot.' Another reason would be the desire to emphasize the singular idea, but even in such an instance it would be better to achieve the emphasis by changing the none to not one or no one. For example, 'Five personswere in the car but none [better: not one or no one] was hurt.' Miss Thistlebottom's rule for considering none to be singular does not have universal application in any event. For instance, you could not use the singular in a sentence like this: 'The negotiations have been going on for two months, but none have succeeded.' You couldn't possibly be thinking of a single 'negotiation.' Likewise: 'France has maintained the principle that none of her forces is [make it are] permanently committed to European defense.' There is no conception here of a single 'force.' The underlying fallacy in Miss Thistlebottom's reasoning is that since none is derived from not one, she thinks it always means that. But it doesn't. Sometimes it means no amount and most often it means not any."

    I will just note that "any" when used as a pronoun is indefinite and can take either a singular or plural verb depending on context.

    We are not debating the rules of grammar. We are debating how the (undisputed) rules of grammar should be applied to a semantically and etymologically ambiguous term that takes on singular or plural meaning depending on context. Consideration of usage is unavoidable. Later Wittgenstein, Bob, not The Tractatus...

    I'm not the one trying his best to be Miss Thistlebottom...

  • April 25, 2024, 4:36 p.m.

    Thanks for that. I still don't find it convincing. He's clearly wrong on both of his examples. 'Negotiations' is clearly a plural of 'negotiation', and would have the same treatment as any other plural. The same when it comes to forces/force. He clearly hasn't thought that one through. See my discussion on this elsewhere. In the end, if you go through it formally, the verb's subject the empty set, which is always singular. Not that it actually matters. People will use it as they do.

    On the contrary. Exactly what we are debating is the rules of grammar. They are of little interest in practical communication.

    I found the whole 'Miss Thistlebottom' thing to be supercilious and condescending, with Bernstein trying to bogusly strengthen his argument by asserting his superiority to a fictional English teacher.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 25, 2024, 9:35 p.m.

    Then that goes back to my comments earlier this thread where I said that the "smart" members at dpr will work out which of the moderators' buttons to not press, at least not all the way in, in order to avoid the ban trigger being pulled on them.

  • Members 616 posts
    April 25, 2024, 9:48 p.m.

    Ah, as such, we can dismiss your claim.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 25, 2024, 9:49 p.m.

    My interpretation of

    "Discussion of moderation policies is permitted in this forum, but if you have a problem with a specific moderator action (or your issue involves personal and/or account information) please contact an admin or use the feedback form."

    at the top of the Site Feedback and Help Forum page also is that NCV's thread is inappropriate for that forum so I am not surprised it wasn't allowed.

    If a member has a specific issue with admin the process is to contact an admin directly or use the feedback form, not the public forum.

    Admin can then choose to reply or not just like any member can choose to reply or not to queries put to them in the public forums.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 25, 2024, 9:54 p.m.

    Of course anyone can justifiably dismiss any unsubstantiated statements I make if they choose to just like anyone can question any unsubstantiated claims in this or other threads.

    I have posted several times that whether anyone believes my unsubstantiated claims or not is irrelevant, at least to me, because it doesn’t change anything.

  • Members 1061 posts
    April 26, 2024, 5:50 a.m.

    I believe I am mostly polite when I post, (sure Dan repetitive reply's got at me in the end). I sometimes believe national differences can have some bearing on how a post is received. Americans tend to be more frank, which can come over as being rude to a Brit, more used to the passive agressive reply. Maybe the passive agressive grates with mostly American mods on DPR. I am still mystified for the reason that my "Why use MF" thread got me a permanent sandboxing.

    Then there is my fall from grace on a particular forum. Sure I admit I was a bit of a M43 fanboy, swept along with the crowd. The system just seemed so brilliant when I swapped a heavy 3 lens DSLR kit for a 3 lens kit that weighed less than my 80-200 2.8. I was mostly doing mountain hiking at the time, so it is easy to understand my enthusiasm. For the record my screen saver for the last few years is a M43 shot of Autumn colours in the Apennines. It still looks good and I guess I could make a big print of it. Another favourite shot was shot on a GX1 + 100-300 on a long walk where were I would never have carried a 600mm lens.

    But then I discovered FF had advantages too, For the more static things I was photographing it was just better suited. The advent of the Z7 rendered M43 obsolete for MY photography. The Z7 + 24-200 was a perfect hiking kit, and via FTZ I can use my Shift lenses for Architecture. I slimmed down the gear cupboard, eliminating duplication.I wrote this Thread on the M43 forum which caused a shit storm, got locked and I got my first ban. It went downhill from there on, with Caldwell, who even made a post attacking me and gloating over how he had banned me ( for Dan: I posted a screenshot on this forum, you can go and find it).

    A lot of posts on my secondary Blog, are threads copied and pasted from DPR, when closure was announced. My shift lens Threads caused a lot of fear and loathing on the Open Forum. More bans for posting incendiary threads/posts.

    My M43 experience cured me of fanboyism, I have come to realise that for the vast range of subjects we all photograph, with varying levels of commitment , that the market provides a good range of gear that suits different people in different ways. I even went th the UK last year and only carried my iPhone. The pictures were perfect for my end use.

  • April 26, 2024, 7:46 a.m.

    Your interpretation would be similar to Mako's. His interpretation of 'policies' is very narrow, and excludes what you might call 'process'. Notice that it excludes a 'specific moderator action', nothing about the moderator - so if you query some moderation that has happened to you, that's outside the rules.
    The bit about 'contact an admin or use the feedback form' rings a bit hollow. You can't use pm's when sandboxed, so good luck contacting an admin unless you know their emails, and the feedback form is a black hole.

  • Members 1061 posts
    April 26, 2024, 10:26 a.m.

    I was pretty careful to avoid mentioning moderator actions.

  • Members 2307 posts
    April 26, 2024, 10:56 a.m.

    Then there must be something else in the post that is against the rules.