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DavidMillier
Members 509 posts
April 20, 2023, 12:53 p.m. April 20, 2023, 12:53 p.m.
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@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

Here's a simple non-technical question to test your photographer's understanding.

Scenario: A low light situation where you need a fast shutter speed to avoid camera shake and freeze action. You set an appropriate shutter speed and notice that your image is 4 stops underexposed. You are already at maximum aperture. What do you do? You have to decide whether to boost ISO by 4 stops or just accept the underexposure and brighten in post.

Q. What do you think will happen to the resulting image quality in both cases?

If I have highlight headroom in the cameras histogram and I cannot increase the exposure* then I would raise ISO to push the histogram data as far to the right as possible without clipping important highlights. This will reduce reduce read noise and then lower the image lightness in post back to what I wanted.

The resultant image will have less visible noise than if I didn't raise ISO and raised the image lightness in post.

now reality, shooting a dance concert. with lights flashing every where. subjects highlighted then completely dark mixed lighting. you would go home with no keepers i can guarantee with your setting's.

Which settings? Raising ISO or just brightening in post? I'd be grateful if you answer my original question directly, without obfuscation or changing the meaning or answering a slightly different question. I believe an honest answer will reveal precisely your real understanding of all this stuff.

understanding are you kidding ! do you shoot video ? underexposed at 4 stops ? my understanding is i never shoot at 4 stops underexposed period . what sort of photographer are you a hypothetical one ? shoot a black backdrop 4 stops under and its unrecoverable period.

Your definition of underexposed is clearly different to what David meant by underexposed. Why am I not surprised...hmmmm...

This is typically what happens when people adopt a misconception of what exposure* actually is.

* exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
*** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

Danno

I'd like Don to answer the question in black and white. Depending on which answer he gives, we will have a clear statement as to how he thinks noise in generated and mitigated. I'm trying to stop him wriggling out of answering clearly (Don it's not a trap, just a diagnosis, please answer!), it would be easier if we can focus on this point for a bit.

And the answer is......?

Ok, I'll answer my own question. I've prepared this as a practical rule of thumb rather than a technical dissertation. If the experts can confirm the broad understanding before launching into the details, I'd be grateful.

THE ISO KNOB, WHAT IT DOES AND WHEN TO USE IT

This is a summary of what I think I have learned over the last few days about the ISO knob and what it is useful for.

The total noise in an image is derived from multiple sources. Without going into the fine detail, I will simplify this by saying that one source of noise comes from the quantum nature of light itself and can't be bypassed or avoided by tech improvements: it's basic physics. We call this noise photon shot noise

Another kind of noise is noise generated by the camera electronics: for simplicity I'll group this kind of noise and call it read noise

The ISO knob does fancy things depending on the implementation in specific camera models. The primary benefit raising ISO has is it reduces read noise. It does not reduce photon shot noise.

One way of thinking of the ISO knob is as an in-camera read noise reduction knob.

Older generation cameras (such as my CCD Nikon D100 6MP DSLR) had a lot of read noise. It made a significant contribution to the total noise in images.

When shooting in low light, you often risk less than ideal exposure (ie underexposure) if you raise your shutter speed to avoid camera shake

In the older cams, underexposure leads to high read noise. Raising the ISO reduces this read noise.

In modern sensors, read noise is generally quite low and is overwhelmed and drowned out by shot noise. Raising the ISO still reduces read noise, but because read noise starts out as a minor component of overall noise, reducing it doesn't achieve a great deal.

Therefore, depending on the particular camera and how it implements ISO, either boosting ISO does absolutely nothing at all to improve noise or it reduces an already modest amount of read noise. Perhaps equivalent to about 1/3rd of a stop in the deep shadows?

Conclusion: Whether you raise ISO, or just underexpose and brighten, in modern cameras it makes very little difference to the noise in your edited image. You will end up with a shot that looks almost the same.

Pick whatever method you are most comfortable with or if you are a perfectionist, find out what the ISO knob does on your particular camera, and whether it is worth adjusting it to save on that last little bit of noise in the deep shadows.

The only way to significantly reduce overall noise is to increase the exposure by:

increase the level of the lighting

increase your aperture

reduce your shutter speed

to get more light on the sensor and reduce the primary source of noise which is photon shot noise.

The ISO knob is a red herring for most practical purposes when setting exposure unless you are an absolute perfectionist about scrubbing read noise and then only in cameras where the ISO knob is used to reduce read noise.

pretty much my conclusion from my test shots tonight. BUT i have to use iso all the time as i shoot live monitors. i have said this a million times also auto focus is more acurate shooting with a brighter evf so iso is part of that as well.

I understand. Sometimes circumstances force us to work a certain way and that's fine. But it is funny that what seems like hundreds of posts have been written about this and that, and it turns out that for most purposes, either approach is fine and worrying about the effect of the ISO knob on image quality is pointless. It works pretty much the same, either approach!
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DavidMillier
Members 509 posts

April 20, 2023, 12:57 p.m. April 20, 2023, 12:57 p.m.
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@DannoB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

for practical purposes the only thing changing the ISO changes is the brightness of the preview on the back of the camera.

But doesn't raising ISO also increase the SNR since the signal is larger than the noise?

Adjusting the ISO for the optimum for your particular camera can improve the SNR if that is how it is designed. But the shot noise increases in lockstep with the signal, so raising ISO does nothing to improve this. It only works on read noise. And read noise is much lower these days. You might even think of it as negligible. Jim Kasson reckons you can squeeze a little more out of an A7riii by setting the optimal ISO, but it's such a small improvement, the more casual among us might consider it not worth the effort of thinking about it. But if you are a good craftsman you can eek out a tiny bit more SNR.

I'm such a bad craftsman, I set my expectations lower. If I shoot to within about a stop of optimum, I'm delighted.

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DonaldB
Members 2303 posts
April 20, 2023, 1 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1 p.m.
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@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

Here's a simple non-technical question to test your photographer's understanding.

Scenario: A low light situation where you need a fast shutter speed to avoid camera shake and freeze action. You set an appropriate shutter speed and notice that your image is 4 stops underexposed. You are already at maximum aperture. What do you do? You have to decide whether to boost ISO by 4 stops or just accept the underexposure and brighten in post.

Q. What do you think will happen to the resulting image quality in both cases?

If I have highlight headroom in the cameras histogram and I cannot increase the exposure* then I would raise ISO to push the histogram data as far to the right as possible without clipping important highlights. This will reduce reduce read noise and then lower the image lightness in post back to what I wanted.

The resultant image will have less visible noise than if I didn't raise ISO and raised the image lightness in post.

now reality, shooting a dance concert. with lights flashing every where. subjects highlighted then completely dark mixed lighting. you would go home with no keepers i can guarantee with your setting's.

Which settings? Raising ISO or just brightening in post? I'd be grateful if you answer my original question directly, without obfuscation or changing the meaning or answering a slightly different question. I believe an honest answer will reveal precisely your real understanding of all this stuff.

understanding are you kidding ! do you shoot video ? underexposed at 4 stops ? my understanding is i never shoot at 4 stops underexposed period . what sort of photographer are you a hypothetical one ? shoot a black backdrop 4 stops under and its unrecoverable period.

Your definition of underexposed is clearly different to what David meant by underexposed. Why am I not surprised...hmmmm...

This is typically what happens when people adopt a misconception of what exposure* actually is.

* exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
*** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

Danno

I'd like Don to answer the question in black and white. Depending on which answer he gives, we will have a clear statement as to how he thinks noise in generated and mitigated. I'm trying to stop him wriggling out of answering clearly (Don it's not a trap, just a diagnosis, please answer!), it would be easier if we can focus on this point for a bit.

And the answer is......?

Ok, I'll answer my own question. I've prepared this as a practical rule of thumb rather than a technical dissertation. If the experts can confirm the broad understanding before launching into the details, I'd be grateful.

THE ISO KNOB, WHAT IT DOES AND WHEN TO USE IT

This is a summary of what I think I have learned over the last few days about the ISO knob and what it is useful for.

The total noise in an image is derived from multiple sources. Without going into the fine detail, I will simplify this by saying that one source of noise comes from the quantum nature of light itself and can't be bypassed or avoided by tech improvements: it's basic physics. We call this noise photon shot noise

Another kind of noise is noise generated by the camera electronics: for simplicity I'll group this kind of noise and call it read noise

The ISO knob does fancy things depending on the implementation in specific camera models. The primary benefit raising ISO has is it reduces read noise. It does not reduce photon shot noise.

One way of thinking of the ISO knob is as an in-camera read noise reduction knob.

Older generation cameras (such as my CCD Nikon D100 6MP DSLR) had a lot of read noise. It made a significant contribution to the total noise in images.

When shooting in low light, you often risk less than ideal exposure (ie underexposure) if you raise your shutter speed to avoid camera shake

In the older cams, underexposure leads to high read noise. Raising the ISO reduces this read noise.

In modern sensors, read noise is generally quite low and is overwhelmed and drowned out by shot noise. Raising the ISO still reduces read noise, but because read noise starts out as a minor component of overall noise, reducing it doesn't achieve a great deal.

Therefore, depending on the particular camera and how it implements ISO, either boosting ISO does absolutely nothing at all to improve noise or it reduces an already modest amount of read noise. Perhaps equivalent to about 1/3rd of a stop in the deep shadows?

Conclusion: Whether you raise ISO, or just underexpose and brighten, in modern cameras it makes very little difference to the noise in your edited image. You will end up with a shot that looks almost the same.

Pick whatever method you are most comfortable with or if you are a perfectionist, find out what the ISO knob does on your particular camera, and whether it is worth adjusting it to save on that last little bit of noise in the deep shadows.

The only way to significantly reduce overall noise is to increase the exposure by:

increase the level of the lighting

increase your aperture

reduce your shutter speed

to get more light on the sensor and reduce the primary source of noise which is photon shot noise.

The ISO knob is a red herring for most practical purposes when setting exposure unless you are an absolute perfectionist about scrubbing read noise and then only in cameras where the ISO knob is used to reduce read noise.

pretty much my conclusion from my test shots tonight. BUT i have to use iso all the time as i shoot live monitors.

I understand. Sometimes circumstances force us to work a certain way and that's fine. But it is funny that what seems like hundreds of posts have been written about this and that, and it turns out that for most purposes, either approach is fine and worrying about the effect of the ISO knob on image quality is pointless. It works pretty much the same, either approach!

pretty much from tonight's studio test shots.
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DavidMillier
Members 509 posts
April 20, 2023, 1:06 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1:06 p.m.
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@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

@DonaldB has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

Here's a simple non-technical question to test your photographer's understanding.

Scenario: A low light situation where you need a fast shutter speed to avoid camera shake and freeze action. You set an appropriate shutter speed and notice that your image is 4 stops underexposed. You are already at maximum aperture. What do you do? You have to decide whether to boost ISO by 4 stops or just accept the underexposure and brighten in post.

Q. What do you think will happen to the resulting image quality in both cases?

If I have highlight headroom in the cameras histogram and I cannot increase the exposure* then I would raise ISO to push the histogram data as far to the right as possible without clipping important highlights. This will reduce reduce read noise and then lower the image lightness in post back to what I wanted.

The resultant image will have less visible noise than if I didn't raise ISO and raised the image lightness in post.

now reality, shooting a dance concert. with lights flashing every where. subjects highlighted then completely dark mixed lighting. you would go home with no keepers i can guarantee with your setting's.

Which settings? Raising ISO or just brightening in post? I'd be grateful if you answer my original question directly, without obfuscation or changing the meaning or answering a slightly different question. I believe an honest answer will reveal precisely your real understanding of all this stuff.

understanding are you kidding ! do you shoot video ? underexposed at 4 stops ? my understanding is i never shoot at 4 stops underexposed period . what sort of photographer are you a hypothetical one ? shoot a black backdrop 4 stops under and its unrecoverable period.

Your definition of underexposed is clearly different to what David meant by underexposed. Why am I not surprised...hmmmm...

This is typically what happens when people adopt a misconception of what exposure* actually is.

* exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
*** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

Danno

I'd like Don to answer the question in black and white. Depending on which answer he gives, we will have a clear statement as to how he thinks noise in generated and mitigated. I'm trying to stop him wriggling out of answering clearly (Don it's not a trap, just a diagnosis, please answer!), it would be easier if we can focus on this point for a bit.

And the answer is......?

Ok, I'll answer my own question. I've prepared this as a practical rule of thumb rather than a technical dissertation. If the experts can confirm the broad understanding before launching into the details, I'd be grateful.

THE ISO KNOB, WHAT IT DOES AND WHEN TO USE IT

This is a summary of what I think I have learned over the last few days about the ISO knob and what it is useful for.

The total noise in an image is derived from multiple sources. Without going into the fine detail, I will simplify this by saying that one source of noise comes from the quantum nature of light itself and can't be bypassed or avoided by tech improvements: it's basic physics. We call this noise photon shot noise

Another kind of noise is noise generated by the camera electronics: for simplicity I'll group this kind of noise and call it read noise

The ISO knob does fancy things depending on the implementation in specific camera models. The primary benefit raising ISO has is it reduces read noise. It does not reduce photon shot noise.

One way of thinking of the ISO knob is as an in-camera read noise reduction knob.

Older generation cameras (such as my CCD Nikon D100 6MP DSLR) had a lot of read noise. It made a significant contribution to the total noise in images.

When shooting in low light, you often risk less than ideal exposure (ie underexposure) if you raise your shutter speed to avoid camera shake

In the older cams, underexposure leads to high read noise. Raising the ISO reduces this read noise.

In modern sensors, read noise is generally quite low and is overwhelmed and drowned out by shot noise. Raising the ISO still reduces read noise, but because read noise starts out as a minor component of overall noise, reducing it doesn't achieve a great deal.

Therefore, depending on the particular camera and how it implements ISO, either boosting ISO does absolutely nothing at all to improve noise or it reduces an already modest amount of read noise. Perhaps equivalent to about 1/3rd of a stop in the deep shadows?

Conclusion: Whether you raise ISO, or just underexpose and brighten, in modern cameras it makes very little difference to the noise in your edited image. You will end up with a shot that looks almost the same.

Pick whatever method you are most comfortable with or if you are a perfectionist, find out what the ISO knob does on your particular camera, and whether it is worth adjusting it to save on that last little bit of noise in the deep shadows.

The only way to significantly reduce overall noise is to increase the exposure by:

increase the level of the lighting

increase your aperture

reduce your shutter speed

to get more light on the sensor and reduce the primary source of noise which is photon shot noise.

The ISO knob is a red herring for most practical purposes when setting exposure unless you are an absolute perfectionist about scrubbing read noise and then only in cameras where the ISO knob is used to reduce read noise.

pretty much my conclusion from my test shots tonight. BUT i have to use iso all the time as i shoot live monitors.

I understand. Sometimes circumstances force us to work a certain way and that's fine. But it is funny that what seems like hundreds of posts have been written about this and that, and it turns out that for most purposes, either approach is fine and worrying about the effect of the ISO knob on image quality is pointless. It works pretty much the same, either approach!

pretty much from tonight's studio test shots.

The downside of raising ISO is it increases the risk of clipping. Although I'm not sure what the practical circumstances would be where it is a real issue. If I'm struggling for light, it's unlikely I'll overexpose. I can see why it is a bad idea to do what my wife did, shooting her safari at ISO 4000 in bright light. A combination of underexposure and risk of clipping is not good.
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DanHasLeftForum
Members 3904 posts

April 20, 2023, 1:07 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1:07 p.m.
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@DavidMillier has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

for practical purposes the only thing changing the ISO changes is the brightness of the preview on the back of the camera.

But doesn't raising ISO also increase the SNR since the signal is larger than the noise?

Adjusting the ISO for the optimum for your particular camera can improve the SNR if that is how it is designed. But the shot noise increases in lockstep with the signal, so raising ISO does nothing to improve this. It only works on read noise. And read noise is much lower these days. You might even think of it as negligible. Jim Kasson reckons you can squeeze a little more out of an A7riii by setting the optimal ISO, but it's such a small improvement, the more casual among us might consider it not worth the effort of thinking about it. But if you are a good craftsman you can eek out a tiny bit more SNR.

I'm such a bad craftsman, I set my expectations lower. If I shoot to within about a stop of optimum, I'm delighted.

To be honest, in good light you could just about train a monkey to take a nice looking shot with any modern camera in Auto mode. It's in low light situations where I find ETTR and maximising the exposure* within artistic constraints is most beneficial for minimising visible noise. In good light, if i'm 1/2 to 1 stop under optimal exposure** I find it generally has little affect on the final image quality after processing the raw data. With raw data I find I can be a little lazy sometimes when fine tuning exposure*.

* exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
*** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.
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DonaldB
Members 2303 posts

April 20, 2023, 1:11 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1:11 p.m.
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not so fast. someone with more knowledge could answer this

Screenshot 2023-04-20 231041.jpg
JPG, 1.9 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on April 20, 2023.
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DanHasLeftForum
Members 3904 posts

April 20, 2023, 1:17 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1:17 p.m.
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I can't verify what processing/editing might have been done to those images. Post links to the raw files.
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DavidMillier
Members 509 posts

April 20, 2023, 1:35 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1:35 p.m.
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@DonaldB has written:

not so fast. someone with more knowledge could answer this

The ISO 100 one looks brighter. Is that what you mean? If so, just reduce the settings in your raw editor until it looks the same. You can set the brightness in post to anything you want.
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IliahBorg
Members 976 posts

April 20, 2023, 1:35 p.m. April 20, 2023, 1:35 p.m.
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@DonaldB has written:

not so fast. someone with more knowledge could answer this

Getting rid of the specular highlights may help exposing still life better ;)

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DonCox
Members 280 posts

April 20, 2023, 6:25 p.m. April 20, 2023, 6:25 p.m.
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If you are using the camera in A or S modes, changing the ISO setting will apply a bias to the metering system. So you will get a different exposure.

Don

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Deleted Removed user

April 20, 2023, 9:49 p.m. April 20, 2023, 9:49 p.m.
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@DavidMillier has written:

Which version of darktable (the brand name uses all lowercase)? It has changed a huge amount over the v3 versions. It's almost an entirely new product compared to v2.

Don't know which version I used. It was a couple of years after Adobe moved over to a subscription model.
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DonaldB
Members 2303 posts

April 20, 2023, 9:57 p.m. April 20, 2023, 9:57 p.m.
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@IliahBorg has written:

@DonaldB has written:

not so fast. someone with more knowledge could answer this

Getting rid of the specular highlights may help exposing still life better ;)

isnt that weird. last night i could see different noise patterns in the black background between the 2 images ,but this morning it is not visible due to ambient light hitting my monitor.
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DanHasLeftForum
Members 3904 posts

April 20, 2023, 10:44 p.m. April 20, 2023, 10:44 p.m.
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@DonaldB has written:

@IliahBorg has written:

@DonaldB has written:

not so fast. someone with more knowledge could answer this

Getting rid of the specular highlights may help exposing still life better ;)

isnt that weird. last night i could see different noise patterns in the black background between the 2 images ,but this morning it is not visible due to ambient light hitting my monitor.

And that is exactly why you shouldn't calibrate monitors using your eyes as you said you did in another thread.
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BillFerris
Members 369 posts

April 21, 2023, 4:32 a.m. April 21, 2023, 4:32 a.m.
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I'm a longtime Adobe products user. I started with Photoshop Elements about 15 years ago and migrated to Lightroom some ten years ago. I've been with Lightroom ever since. The Creative Cloud subscription has really stabilized things and improved the quality of the products. The newest release of Lightroom Classic (v12.3) includes an AI Denoise tool that is simply amazing. One could argue that Adobe was well and truly late to the party with denoising tools but, my goodness, was it worth the wait! I'm looking forward to seeing what Adobe packages with AI Denoise in the updates they'll deliver over the next 12 months. I would not be surprised to see them package an AI sharpening tool with Denoise. The Creative Cloud subscription is easily among the top-5 best values in photography.

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OpenCube
Members 861 posts

April 21, 2023, 4:55 a.m. April 21, 2023, 4:55 a.m.
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Thanks to all of you keeping my Adobe stock's price high.

CrashpcCZ likes this.

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TonyBeach
Members 204 posts

April 22, 2023, 5:10 p.m. April 22, 2023, 5:10 p.m.
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@IliahBorg has written:

@DannoB has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

Here's a simple non-technical question to test your photographer's understanding.

Scenario: A low light situation where you need a fast shutter speed to avoid camera shake and freeze action. You set an appropriate shutter speed and notice that your image is 4 stops underexposed. You are already at maximum aperture. What do you do? You have to decide whether to boost ISO by 4 stops or just accept the underexposure and brighten in post.

Q. What do you think will happen to the resulting image quality in both cases?

If I have highlight headroom in the cameras histogram and I cannot increase the exposure* then I would raise ISO to push the histogram data as far to the right as possible without clipping important highlights. This will reduce reduce read noise and then lower the image lightness in post back to what I wanted.

The resultant image will have less visible noise than if I didn't raise ISO and raised the image lightness in post.

Consider Nikon D850. Changing ISO setting from 400 to 25600 while keeping exposure doesn't result in any practical improvement of noise, but highlights clip earlier.
Pretty much the same story with Sony 7R M5, 400 to 12800.

So the D850 is essentially ISO invariant above ISO 400. What about between its lowest ISO and ISO 400?
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JimKasson
Members 1737 posts

April 22, 2023, 5:24 p.m. April 22, 2023, 5:24 p.m.
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@DonaldB has written:

look lets get this out ,i have studied electronics , radio telecommunications. i can see in a schematic diagram where the transistors, capacitors are to determine what they are doing. its very basic actually. i can remember a poster saying wow how do you fit millions of pots in a sensor LOL you dont cmos operates from 5v to 15 volt ,just control the common collector voltage at the pixel amp simple isnt it. iso doesnt control individual pixels it controls the lot through a common rail. this is very simple explanation but heh it is wah it is.

That's not how CMOS sensors work. They use source followers, column amps and muxes. And you'll never find 15 volts applied to a CMOS sensor.

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JimKasson
Members 1737 posts

April 22, 2023, 6:05 p.m. April 22, 2023, 6:05 p.m.
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@DannoLeftForums has written:

@DavidMillier has written:

for practical purposes the only thing changing the ISO changes is the brightness of the preview on the back of the camera.

But doesn't raising ISO also increase the SNR since the signal is larger than the noise?

Not if the read noise is a fair amount less than the photon noise. The two add as the square root of the sum of the squares, so the higher component dominates.

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