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Are smaller pixels/sensors better for macro.

DonaldB
June 30, 2023
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    JohnSheehyRev
    Members 550 posts
    June 30, 2023, 2:22 p.m. June 30, 2023, 2:22 p.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    you are quite right stacking FF images has taken away the advantage of the smaller sensors dof.

    There could only be more DOF possible with smaller sensors if the lenses used with the smaller sensors had smaller minimum entrance pupils.

    To a person who thinks in terms of f-ratio, then certainly the same f-ratio (when AOV is the same) will give more DOF with the smaller sensor, but that is not a logical way to approach needed DOF; it should be based on the entrance pupil size; not the f-ratio. That will be lens-dependent.

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    bobn2
    Team 2240 posts
    June 30, 2023, 3:44 p.m. June 30, 2023, 3:44 p.m.
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    @JohnSheehyRev has written:

    There could only be more DOF possible with smaller sensors if the lenses used with the smaller sensors had smaller minimum entrance pupils.

    By and large they do, because the maximum f-number in macro lenses doesn't generally account for format size.

    xlucine likes this.

    favorite 1

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    NCV
    Members 2100 posts
    June 30, 2023, 4:37 p.m. June 30, 2023, 4:37 p.m.
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    Some great pictures Don!

    DonaldB likes this.

    favorite 1

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    June 30, 2023, 9:11 p.m. June 30, 2023, 9:11 p.m.
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    @JohnSheehyRev has written:

    There isn't really any disadvantage for smaller sensors for macro with significant DOF, because that DOF means that you are operating within the range of practical equivalence. Many FF sensors do have more pixels though, than the typical smaller sensors used for macro (excluding things like 108MP cellphone sensors). Pixel size is only relevant in context. If smaller means more of them on-subject, then that is a plus. If one system has smaller pixels but puts less of them on-subject, then it has no advantage; just a resolution disadvantage.

    That all assumes equivalent usage (same entrance pupil size and distance from subject).

    there is always a disadvantage to smaller sensors apart from usabillity.
    w351.jpg

    w63.jpg

    w351.jpg

    JPG, 1.7 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on June 30, 2023.

    w63.jpg

    JPG, 1.0 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on June 30, 2023.

    Preben likes this.

    favorite 1

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    JohnSheehyRev
    Members 550 posts
    June 30, 2023, 9:45 p.m. June 30, 2023, 9:45 p.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    there is always a disadvantage to smaller sensors apart from usabillity.

    Those are not the same photo. What is the point of comparing so many arbitrary factors?

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    June 30, 2023, 11:06 p.m. June 30, 2023, 11:06 p.m.
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    @JohnSheehyRev has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    there is always a disadvantage to smaller sensors apart from usabillity.

    Those are not the same photo. What is the point of comparing so many arbitrary factors?

    No they arnt one is taken with the fz150 and one taken with the em5.

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    Foskito
    Members 284 posts
    July 1, 2023, 1:01 a.m. July 1, 2023, 1:01 a.m.
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    @simplejoy has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @simplejoy has written:

    One thing I'm curious about:

    If you're shooting 10 frames per second, are you

    a.) doing so handheld?
    and
    b.) what kind of light do you use?

    I have a fairly unique setup for live subjects, i have a studio for my portraits so i made a micro studio for my live subjects. im using led 6x8 inch panel which works a treat. .but the most exciting thing about todays experiment is using my a74 which i hadnt used before. and what a surprise it can shoot at 10 frames using electronic shutter with no blackout 😁 first camera i have owned that can do this. i also move the subject not the camera like everyone else.

    Thanks a lot! Yes - I've seen some setups which move the subject in studio, seems to work very well if everything is stable enough. The last part is my most significant problem at this stage. I don't have a completely stable floor, which has a significant impact. Wish you lots of fun with your A7 R4 macro experiments - I'm sure that's a blast! 👍

    Stunning images, congrats on that amazing job!!

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    July 1, 2023, 5:42 a.m. July 1, 2023, 5:42 a.m.
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    had a play with my a74, sensor needs cleaning ,but i ran out of wet swabs 😒
    image is impressive though.

    ant a74 4x.jpg

    ant a74 4x.jpg

    JPG, 21.3 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on July 1, 2023.

    Preben, Danny, barondla and 1 other user like this.

    favorite 4

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    simplejoy
    Members 1662 posts
    July 1, 2023, 6:06 a.m. July 1, 2023, 6:06 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    had a play with my a74, sensor needs cleaning ,but i ran out of wet swabs 😒
    image is impressive though.

    ant a74 4x.jpg

    That‘s a fantastic capture! Well done. 👍 Is it on a dandelion?

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    July 1, 2023, 6:36 a.m. July 1, 2023, 6:36 a.m.
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    @simplejoy has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    had a play with my a74, sensor needs cleaning ,but i ran out of wet swabs 😒
    image is impressive though.

    ant a74 4x.jpg

    That‘s a fantastic capture! Well done. 👍 Is it on a dandelion?

    Yes, i always let them runaround on flowers and get covered in pollin . 😁

    these are in the field. once in a life time shots.

    w432 (2023_05_12 22_17_46 UTC).jpg

    w429print.jpg

    w434.jpg

    w434.jpg

    JPG, 2.6 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on July 1, 2023.

    w429print.jpg

    JPG, 3.2 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on July 1, 2023.

    w432 (2023_05_12 22_17_46 UTC).jpg

    JPG, 1.7 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on July 1, 2023.

    Preben, barondla, simplejoy and 2 other users like this.

    favorite 5

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    Danny
    Members 435 posts
    July 1, 2023, 6:52 a.m. July 1, 2023, 6:52 a.m.
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    Excellent shots Don!

    DonaldB likes this.

    favorite 1

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    July 2, 2023, 8:28 a.m. July 2, 2023, 8:28 a.m.
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    did some tests and i was correct my a74 larger sensor/pixels can easily out resolve my old em12 ,the pixel size plays a big part . ive been saying it for years.

    amscope.com/pages/camera-resolution

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    simplejoy
    Members 1662 posts
    July 2, 2023, 9:09 a.m. July 2, 2023, 9:09 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    did some tests and i was correct my a74 larger sensor/pixels can easily out resolve my old em12 ,the pixel size plays a big part . ive been saying it for years.

    amscope.com/pages/camera-resolution

    From what I've read so far I think so as well. Pixel size/pixel pitch matters.

    Here's a short thread on it on photomacrography:
    www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=45894

    As stated before, I'm sure there are significantly more detailed explanations and examples with specific cameras/camera-lens combinations there or elsewhere, but given that I'm not very interested yet in those specifics (I might be at some point in the future, I guess), I can't name exact links.

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    simplejoy
    Members 1662 posts
    July 2, 2023, 9:23 a.m. July 2, 2023, 9:23 a.m.
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    On a different note:

    Inspired by the beautiful recent ant shot by @DonaldB with the pollen, I decided to shoot some flower details up close as well:

    live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016634724_00bfdd912f_h.jpg
    Full Res: live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016634724_e6c2e7e56d_o.jpg

    live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016957178_03e0260be7_h.jpg
    Full Res: live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016957178_27b02990fd_o.jpg

    All of a sudden, this tiny creature (being around 1-1.5 mm in size) appeared out of the flower:
    live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016635724_9634617e9a_h.jpg
    Full Res: live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016635724_e444e52b97_o.jpg

    Of course my setup isn't made to capture such a tiny creature running around. I was lucky that it stopped a couple of times, because I wouldn't have been able to capture it at all (with my continuous lighting setup) if it wasn't for that. I've no idea what kind of creature that is... doesn't look like a typical aphid to me.

    Image quality is not quite where I'd want it to be yet, but it was fun using my 16 mm Luminar again... such a nice little lens!

    Preben, StanyBuyle, barondla and 2 other users like this.

    favorite 5

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    July 2, 2023, 9:31 a.m. July 2, 2023, 9:31 a.m.
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    @simplejoy has written:

    On a different note:

    Inspired by the beautiful recent ant shot by @DonaldB with the pollen, I decided to shoot some flower details up close as well:

    live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016634724_00bfdd912f_h.jpg
    Full Res: live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016634724_e6c2e7e56d_o.jpg

    live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016957178_03e0260be7_h.jpg
    Full Res: live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016957178_27b02990fd_o.jpg

    All of a sudden, this tiny creature (being around 1-1.5 mm in size) appeared out of the flower:
    live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016635724_9634617e9a_h.jpg
    Full Res: live.staticflickr.com/65535/53016635724_e444e52b97_o.jpg

    very nice mate

    Of course my setup isn't made to capture such a tiny creature running around. I was lucky that it stopped a couple of times, because I wouldn't have been able to capture it at all (with my continuous lighting setup) if it wasn't for that. I've no idea what kind of creature that is... doesn't look like a typical aphid to me.

    Image quality is not quite where I'd want it to be yet, but it was fun using my 16 mm Luminar again... such a nice little lens!

    ive been thinking of buying another olympus 4x microscope objective, i bought a 40yold 10x olympus and is great.

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    July 2, 2023, 9:36 a.m. July 2, 2023, 9:36 a.m.
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    another fav shot

    w503 (2023_04_01 06_34_30 UTC) (2023_06_30 21_51_49 UTC).jpg

    w503 (2023_04_01 06_34_30 UTC) (2023_06_30 21_51_49 UTC).jpg

    JPG, 1.7 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on July 2, 2023.

    Preben, NCV and Danny like this.

    favorite 3

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    JohnSheehyRev
    Members 550 posts
    July 2, 2023, 11:50 a.m. July 2, 2023, 11:50 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    did some tests and i was correct my a74 larger sensor/pixels can easily out resolve my old em12 ,the pixel size plays a big part . ive been saying it for years.

    amscope.com/pages/camera-resolution

    You can say it for centuries, but it will still be wrong. All that larger pixels are better for is smaller files and faster rolling e-shutters, due to less pixels to read out. And maybe a little less light loss at very low f-numbers, around 2 or lower, but BSI is reducing that issue.

    Your so-called "tests"; did they use the same sensor area on both sensors so that you're really comparing pixel size/density, and not sensor area? Same optics, so that you're not comparing optics? Same subject and distance? Your claim should stand when everything else but pixel density is the same.

    JohnVickers, finnan and IliahBorg like this.

    favorite 3

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    DonaldB
    Members 2418 posts
    July 2, 2023, 12:10 p.m. July 2, 2023, 12:10 p.m.
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    @JohnSheehyRev has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    did some tests and i was correct my a74 larger sensor/pixels can easily out resolve my old em12 ,the pixel size plays a big part . ive been saying it for years.

    amscope.com/pages/camera-resolution

    You can say it for centuries, but it will still be wrong. All that larger pixels are better for is smaller files and faster rolling e-shutters, due to less pixels to read out. And maybe a little less light loss at very low f-numbers, around 2 or lower, but BSI is reducing that issue.

    Your so-called "tests"; did they use the same sensor area on both sensors so that you're really comparing pixel size/density, and not sensor area? Same optics, so that you're not comparing optics? Same subject and distance? Your claim should stand when everything else but pixel density is the same.

    many of the extreme macro forums agree and so do the microscope objective manufacturers . 10 x objective should have a min pixel size of 5.0um.
    can you actually take images ? i have never seen any of your images let alone extreme macro.

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