• Members 878 posts
    June 16, 2023, 8 p.m.

    [deleted]

  • Removed user
    June 16, 2023, 8:17 p.m.

    SNR=1 is so magical that it can't be got in a normal distribution, because that implies there is some negative luminance:

    dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/ISO_Dynamic_range.pdf

    As Kerr says, the ISO standard for DR has to get up to some tricks to extrapolate to that point from some higher luminance.

    And not many find SNR=1 acceptable - ratios of 5, 10 or 20 being bruited in the literature - reducing ISO's DR by over 3EV!

  • Members 878 posts
    June 16, 2023, 8:38 p.m.

    [deleted]

  • Removed user
    June 16, 2023, 8:58 p.m.

    I know the feeling ... 😉

    It ain't that bad. One of the ISO Exposure Index methods gives a clue where it is said that mid-gray is 118/255 in an sRGB developed image - and mid-gray is based on an 18% exposure of the sensor, in other words 0.18 of the saturated value. Because of the dreaded gamma (approx 2.2), that translates to 0.18 raised to the power of (1/2.2) = about 0.461.So, for 8-bit imaging we get 0.461x255=118.

  • Removed user
    June 16, 2023, 9:23 p.m.

    Unfortunately, it only said "exposure" which, from just about every photographic site on the planet, can mean anything. That gives him the means to weasel out of any rebuttal such as yours, right or wrong ...

    ... so let's say instead that the focal plane exposure Hm (lx・s) = 0.65BT/F^2 per Section 5 of CIPA DC-004 (now incorporated into ISO).

    Where B, T, F are the three aforementioned variables, excluding "ISO" ...

    To my mind, a statement that refers to a widely accepted Standard outweighs any unsupported opinion expressed here or anywhere else.

  • June 16, 2023, 9:26 p.m.

    Of course I'm not joking. But all of those are, as I said, side effects of 'ISO'. They are not 'ISO'. They don't have a constant relationship with ISO setting, it varies from camera to camera.
    I would argue that lightness very much has a meaning for raw shooters, unless all they ever intend doing with their raw files is store them and maybe analyse them. As soo as you want to display them, lightness has a meaning. But the real point is that ISO is not defined for a raw file, and the effect of the ISO control on a raw file changes from camera to camera.
    I'd ask again, if you wish to maintain that this (correct) definition of ISO is erroneous, please do suggest an alternative one which would be accessible to people starting out in photography, and wanting to know what is the function of the ISO control.

    ISO is about the relationship between lightness and exposure, not 'brightness'. But ISO is exactly about setting the lightness for a given exposure. Now that's not everything that the ISO control on a camera does.

    For sure, who ever said that you shouldn't tell them about how the ISO control operates? But that is not the definition of ISO, it's about what are actually the side -effects - sometimes designed-in side effects. And of course they should be discussed, because they exist and affect practice.

    please stop with these derogatory inferences.

    That's an argument that you could apply to dismiss any defined measure. The fact that it appears in other theorems 'later' means that it is of importance.

    What are we doing when we create a digital representation of a scene? Is that not 'coding'?

    I have never said that SNR=1 is a magical threshold, so there is a straw man straight away. However, it is a very commonly affected threshold for DR, so much that commonly, if not otherwise specified, that is the threshold assumed for DR. It is also the threshold that appears in the Shannon-Hartley theorem. So, as the widely accepted and understood threshold, if one's using another, there needs to be some argument as to why that other is more appropriate, which in turn depends on what it is that your metric is trying to achieve. Coming back to Bill's 'PDR' metric, I've never ever seen a clear motivation as to what it's trying to achieve (other than being 'more realistic' in some unstated sense), and nor does the choice of threshold stand up to even cursory examination.

    So, I still don't believe that you put forward a coherent argument as to why the things that you called 'errors' are that.

  • June 16, 2023, 9:32 p.m.

    The word 'exposure' has, for more than 100 years, had a firm definition and central place in the theory of photography. The fact that the web has meant a plethora of uniformed so-called 'information' sources by people with zero knowledge about the topic and no editorial control is lamentable, but doesn't affect the meaning of 'exposure' in the theory of photography. In the end, the point is that maybe you can play fast and loose with the terminology in general use, but if you're trying to teach people about a subject, there's an onus on you toi get it right.

    I don't disagree. The problem is that Don doesn't have the capacity to understand that Hm (lx・s)[/u] = 0.65BT/F^2 means that scene luminance is one of the determinants of exposure. Neither do all the others that rail against this. Sop the argument simply doesn't work with them.
    And it's not just that lack of capacity. See my current discussion with JACS, who is a University teacher of mathematics, so certainly does have that capacity, but is still trying to argue that the ISO definition of ISO is irrelevant to what ISO is.

  • Members 2305 posts
    June 16, 2023, 10:17 p.m.

    🥱🥱🥱

  • Members 128 posts
    June 16, 2023, 10:17 p.m.

    You need to very careful and very explicit if you want to mix information theory into this.

    Common measures of "Dynamic Range" used in photography do not correspond to the Signal-to-Noise Ratio in the Hartley-Shannon theorem sense.

    For example, suppose we have a modern FF camera with a good 24MP sensor and 14bit conversion, at base ISO. Near clipping, total noise is completely dominated by shot (Poisson) noise, and is about 50DNs. So, near clipping, Signal/Noise is about 300 ~= 8.2EV.

    Also, noisy communication channels do not have a "noise floor" in "information theory". Communication remains possible at arbitrarily poor Signal-to-Noise Ratios - communication just gets a bit slow.

    But it does seem interesting to ask: "What is the maximum information that this camera can capture in a single exposure?"


    Edit:

    • Fix misspelling.
  • Members 2305 posts
    June 16, 2023, 10:18 p.m.

    Quote : its irrelevant when your taking a portrait of a black person or a white person, i set the exposure and scene lighting the same even though the
    reflective light hitting the camera sensor is not the same, so how can there be a reference for lux to photography ?

  • Members 976 posts
    June 16, 2023, 11:08 p.m.

    Try switching light off.

  • Removed user
    June 17, 2023, 2:19 a.m.

    Reminds me of a song: "so good they named it twice" ...

    ,, but the Donald's grammar is so bad that the question is unintelligible.

  • Members 2305 posts
    June 17, 2023, 2:32 a.m.

    I understand my grammar thats all that matters. i have always said my grammar is absolutely pathetic 😁 but i can lift heavy fings 😋

  • Members 878 posts
    June 17, 2023, 4:06 p.m.

    [deleted]

  • Removed user
    June 17, 2023, 4:23 p.m.

    what a surprise!

    How manly ...

    ... the question remains unintelligible.

  • June 17, 2023, 6:08 p.m.

    Yous started off saying it was an error, now you've changed your story, and it's that you don't care whether or not it's correct. I'm not chasing your moving goalpost around any more.

  • Members 878 posts