DPReview Going Downhill Fast

In the last couple of days I read more and more posts on DPReview written by the most zealoty of zealots that are in their form just pissing and throwing shit at each other. This is not necessarily something new, but got worse in the last couple of days, and the exact opposite of a civilized discussion. Even starting new threads isn’t interesting anymore, because there is no fun in a destructive, off-topic discussion.

What will happen at this place? As many heavy DPReview members moved over here, will the tone be the same? Will the tone get better and censorship worse? Or will it be allowed to say even more to keep free speech really free?

Edit - I just re-read your post and I honestly don't know if you're asking for more moderation of complaining about censorship?

So how about a link to some of the threads so we can see what all the fuss is about?

I am asking what the policies / rules are / will be on this site, and if it will be rather restrictive (read: heavily moderated), or free speech?

Was there already a discussion about this topic? What was the outcome?

Would Bob's reply be relevant to your question?

Thanks! This was exactly what I was searching for. I think it’s a rational decision for the beginning of this site, and definitely better than a long list of rules that nobody adheres to.

This is my first post here. I think some of the DPReview forums started to go downhill quite awhile ago when the Off-Topic Forum was dissolved. Some members took their aggressive behavior to other forums when that happened. I am just opining. Moderation was really good in some of the forums, and not so good in others.

I wish good things for this new site!

Former DPR member: digitallollygag
Now: snackmaster5000

ive never found any members behavior "aggressive" "passionate debating" maybe, the only problem i seen was when posters started to make personal attacks because they were lousy debaters and frustration set in , other wise it made for a healthy site until the self agenda mods took control with there narrow minded views and then some of the forums became a dictatorship. i always wondered how comparing 2 cameras put you in moderation when the site itself in there reviews constantly bagged one camera over another, just didnt make any sense.

Personal attacks are a sure sign that the attacker has run out of cogent arguments for his or her position.

If somebody calls you an idiot it is a personal attack and aggressive verbal behavior from my POV. You can’t have a fist fight over a cable where the participants sit hundreds of miles away.

YMMV obviously, just wanted to add my perspective to this discussion.

One example for strange threads as an outcome were DPReview OPs with a clear agenda before even submitting their post. Then the trolling, controversies (on purpose), and personal attacks began.

Another classic is the “what can you know” responders. Discussions never led to a fruitful outcome in this kind of threads as they were basically hijacked, you had to deal with condescension, and provocative non-answers.

A third example was the typical gear hypocrisy where people who talked you out of buying a specific camera, because you don’t need it, without even adding an argument to the discussion or asking follow up questions. The same people of course already owned the same body they tried to talk you out of.

The fourth example are the one brand loyal members who will do everything to defend their favorite tool company.

You can easily find more than 100 posts that cover just the four mentioned examples by browsing through last month’s threads.

A lot of this behavior came from members with thousands of posts which doesn’t make it better.

I don’t want to sound overly negative here as I had my fair share of entertainment there. It’s just fair to also mention the cons.

I hope that this place will be better, and I’m already quite positive after spending my first days here.

As long as there aren't racial words or threats etc, or SPAM and such, hopefully people can be free to passionately debate things as they see fit.

For instance, in my case, one view I have, which I'm not inclined to bring up myself (other than right now so as to give an example) but if it comes up I would like to be able to participate in this debate, is that I think it you call yourself a "photographer" you should never use a smartphone camera instead of a dedicated camera at least at the Sony RX100 level, and I also think that AI doesn't count as photography either. (Someone just snapping a "quickie" with a phone, that's different.) Even if they make money at it or people drool over their photos, no matter, you should use a tool above the level of a toy, just as I'm sure Tiger Woods uses quality golf clubs in his pursuits even though I agree that it's his skill that set him apart from everyone else, not his clubs. To me the same applies here.

The point is, while I understand refraining from personal one-on-one attacks and having a non-hateful tone, if such a topic as that comes up and I express my opinion without any ugliness and someone calls me a "dinosaur" or such, frankly--so what, so long as I can respond back in kind "call me a dinosaur if you want, but that's how I see it and you're not changing my mind" or such. Let the debate carry on, so long as it doesn't turn into a mud-slinging contest.

Understand, I would never jump into someone's post where that's not the topic of conversation, let's say they're showing a photo for critique and nothing more and they happen to mention that a phone was used, I'll just "keep scrolling" as it were. However, if someone posts a thread saying "I'm a professional and I only use a phone now" as a topic of conversation, I don't think posts should be restricted simply to persons who agree with them. Posts should be allowed that respectfully disagree, a good example might be "I realize that people want to be 'inclusive' and many have the sentiment 'everyone is a photographer now,' but with all due respect I just can't get behind someone being regarded as a 'photographer' if they use a toy." To me, as long as it doesn't turn into a mud-slinging contest, I think such debates should absolutely be allowed.

I agree there's room for respectful disagreement. Thing is, your hypothetical already crosses that line by calling something a 'toy'. That's not respectful disagreement, that's an insult. What would anyone think if I called their normal rig "something out of the Fisher-Price catalog"? It comes across as someone with a chip on their shoulder and a closed mind.

I would argue that instead of leading with an insult, 'respectful' would be something like "I just can't get behind someone being regarded as a 'photographer' if they use something with that limited creative control." Cite your actual problem with smartphones, instead of making ad hominem attacks.

That's where I'm going to disagree a bit. I understand not calling someone an idiot or a swear word, but I think "toy" is fine. It refers to the camera, and to me that's fine.

Dare I say it, at a certain point I think people start to become too sensitive and something of a snowflake. Political correctness and being all gentle with my opinion is not something I have any interest in with opinions I feel strongly about, even as I agree with the idea of not being outright ugly.

I would agree it would be wrong to call a poster themselves a name, but I see nothing wrong with drawing a distinction between the everyday snapshooter vs a bona fide photographer (or enthusiast etc) and how a certain CAMERA is beneath the latter. To me, "toy" denotes how the camera itself simply isn't worthy.

Further, when you mentioned "closed mind," for me with such things it simply means that certain opinions and standards for me are etched in stone, they're sacred and transcend time itself, my mind is made up about them and while I understand not being ugly I also have no interest in changing my mind about them either. Sometimes "embracing diversity" is something I think is taken too far at times. There are times I look at certain things in a "math brain" sort of way, meaning that 2+5=7 and that's absolutely it no matter whether you like it. For me, sometimes such non negotiable absolutes are very much where it's at for me.

I agree on your general premise of people being overly sensitive, l also disagree on your premise about smartphones ( Though l don't use them or like them for photography myself ) and would welcome that kind of discussion.
The general problem, in my experience, is that people take a position on something and will defend that position to the death, leaving no possibility for the fact they may be mistaken. When was the last time you ever heard anyone state 'l've considered the arguments and changed my mind'?

After being lead astray by believing what I was reading and seeing about the Exposure Triangle when I first got into photography, I actually changed my mind when I finally realised, by listening to people who actually knew what they were talking about, that the notorious Exposure Triangle and what it taught was totally wrong.

We all have our own epiphanies on our photographic journey, l guess my point is that you virtually never see that expressed mid thread, humility and grace are rarely seen in online discussions unfortunately. Generally l notice gushing and unwarranted obsequiousness, or vitriol, and ne'er the twain shall meet. Such is the human condition in modern society it would appear.

Hmmm. I think you just called TravisButler a Snowflake, and as for non-negotiable absolutes, 2+5=10 in base 7. :-)

I think it's better, rather than not saying something you deem offensive, to work to avoid saying things that might offend, particularly as you don't know the person who's reading your post. Err on the side of caution, which I would consider basic good manners rather than 'political correctness'.