• Removed user
    May 30, 2023, 4:17 p.m.

    petapixel.com/exposure-triangle/

    Pure hogwash ...

  • edit

    Thread title has been changed from Photoraphy Myth #1.

  • Members 1737 posts
    May 30, 2023, 4:19 p.m.

    "Photoraphy "? Ah, you fixed it!

    Jim

  • Members 15 posts
    May 30, 2023, 4:33 p.m.

    ..
    But he is very lacky person.
    I wish my camera sensor double the sensitivity too for each ISO step

  • May 30, 2023, 4:38 p.m.

    Ye gods. I'm not the best in this field by a long way and even I can see that is wrong in so many ways.

    Alan

  • Members 280 posts
    May 30, 2023, 6:15 p.m.

    Is there an agreed definition of "sensitivity" in this context ?

    Don

  • Removed user
    May 30, 2023, 6:30 p.m.

    I very much doubt it, Don.

    But, by restricting the discussion to the output in volts or charge from the same sensor for a given exposure (lux-sec), the OP holds as a myth.

    Perhaps you were angling towards pages re: ISO which say that the camera's sensitivity is increased?

  • Members 530 posts
    June 7, 2023, 11:54 a.m.

    I can't think of any that would justify a statement that ISO 200 is twice as sensitive as ISO 100. The QE is the same, so the same exposure gets the same photon noise at both ISOs. If they use the same conversion gain, then pre-gain read noise relative to any given exposure is also the same. Post-gain read noise is half as strong relative to a given exposure at ISO 200, but that is too small a difference in quadrature to be relevant in this conversation.

    The statement seems to be conflating normalization of "lightness" (a cheap parlor trick of scaling numbers) with "sensitivity". If ISO 200 was truly 2x as sensitive as ISO 100, then 1/200 at ISO 200 would have no more noise than 1/100 at ISO 100, AOTBE, which would both be the same as 1/8000 at ISO 8000.

  • Members 549 posts
    June 7, 2023, 12:37 p.m.

    This is how ISO defines the photographic sensitivity:

    Screenshot 2023-06-07 at 13.35.01.png

    I don't see any mention of noise in this definition.

    Screenshot 2023-06-07 at 13.35.01.png

    PNG, 74.0 KB, uploaded by TomAxford on June 7, 2023.

  • Members 243 posts
    June 7, 2023, 12:44 p.m.

    I honestly feel like I know less about ISO now than when I started coming to forums years ago.

  • June 7, 2023, 12:52 p.m.

    Clearly not. The history of 'sensitivity' in a photographic context is convoluted.
    In a general context, 'sensitivity' refers to the size of stimulus necessary to cause a reaction, not the size of that reaction. The smaller a stimulus is necessary the higher the sensitivity. That applies both in general parlance and scientific/engineering usage. In that sense the ISO control does not usually change sensitivity of the sensor (if the sensor has dual conversion gain, it does, but not in proportion to the ISO). At some stage it crept into photographic usage to denote the size of reaction rather than the size of stimulus which went with the idea that 'gain' or 'amplification' changes 'sensitivity'. Generally it doesn't. Applying gain after a transducer does not change the sensitivity of the transducer. I suspect that the misunderstanding is due to radio hams, who are used to an RF gain control increasing the sensitivity of their receiver, but this is due to the specific behaviour of a diode detector - putting gain before the detector does change the minimum signal it can detect. In a sensor we are not putting the gain before the detector.
    Anyhow, when digital cameras started to provide the ability to change the ISO, it was described (wrongly) as a 'sensitivity' control due mainly, I suspect, to this bogus RF receiver analogy. CIPA has been promoting this 'sensitivity' description for a long while, whilst ISO has been resistant, even though it adopted CIPA's two novel 'ISO' definitions in 2006. In the 2019 update of the standard it fudged the whole issue by adopting a term 'photographic sensitivity', which essentially says 'Photographic sensitivity is a term for ISO and for historical reasons sometimes it's just called sensitivity'.

  • June 7, 2023, 12:53 p.m.

    That might be how it feels but it's very probably not true. Of course it depends on what you knew about ISO then.

  • Members 530 posts
    June 7, 2023, 2:23 p.m.

    I was talking about the English word "sensitivity"; not the ISO committee's definition. Even by the common English understandings of the word, doubling ISO does not double sensitivity.

  • Members 976 posts
    June 7, 2023, 2:31 p.m.

    I think conversion gain control still changes responsivity.

  • Members 1737 posts
    June 7, 2023, 2:40 p.m.

    At the focal plane implies below the stack, the microlenses, and the CFA. That doesn't seem right.

  • Members 976 posts
    June 7, 2023, 2:43 p.m.

    Maybe it's a good thing if you shoot raw ;)

  • June 7, 2023, 3:14 p.m.

    Worse, it's actually the image plane. The focal plane is out there in front of the camera. I think it's a translation issue, where what was meant was 'plane of focus' and what came out was 'focal plane'. It's a consistent error in the ISO photography standards, so maybe it's not now an error.

  • June 7, 2023, 3:16 p.m.

    It changes the input referred noise level, and thus the level of excitation which can be detected. Then, I suppose that any pre ADC gain does that. The key point with respect to ISO is that any actual sensitivity change is not proportional to ISO setting, nor is it mandated to be.

  • Members 976 posts
    June 7, 2023, 3:46 p.m.

    I'm not saying it doesn't change sensitivity, I'm saying it changes responsivity too, and IMHO it's the major effect ;)