• Members 166 posts
    March 14, 2024, 5:29 p.m.

    There's a difference between the Framework documents and the Common Core Standards learning goals documents. The Common Core documents are the ones that describe actual learning goals and expectations. The Framework documents provide 'guidance' to the educators - at least that's how I understand it. The learning goals and expectations include memorization of the multiplication tables by the end of third grade.

    www.scoe.net/castandards/Documents/parent_overview_math_3-5.pdf

    'Know from memory all products of two one-digit numbers'

    Regarding your other comment about Algebra II, there's this:

    www.scoe.net/castandards/Documents/parent_overview_math_9-12.pdf

    I'm not a mathematician or a teacher, so I don't know if that's good. You can see if you approve.

    Why some particular phrases are not in the Framework is probably of concern and should be addressed, but all this exemplifies the tendency of people to glom onto something that seems to support what they already prefer to think, and look no further. In this case, to think that California is doing stupid things to the education system. California may very well be doing stupid things to the education system, along with every other state in the US, but at least get all the facts in line rather than rely on a news feed summary and a sensationally constructed declaration such as 'California canceled ...'

    If you want to see and research the actual collection of relevant documents, go here:

    www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/cf/

  • Members 599 posts
    March 14, 2024, 6:16 p.m.

    That depends...but why would that even matter. You read it and get entertained or join in. Otherwise, don't read it ...the beauty here is that you have a choice.

  • Members 166 posts
    March 14, 2024, 7:18 p.m.

    If so, why did you not mention it yourself? Because that wouldn't fit the agenda you prefer?

    Like the bits and pieces you posted earlier, that were misleading. Now you've got some new ones.

    If it's now modified, we should be looking at the modified version.

    There's plenty to see in those comments, most of which are simply political opinions. And as we well know, anything that goes against someone's established political opinions must be bad.

    I know it's reassuring that there are experts out there who have the same political leanings that you have, but the same goes for the side(s) that you oppose.

  • Members 25 posts
    March 14, 2024, 8:17 p.m.

    Why would I avoid it?
    It's a very valuable service.

  • Members 166 posts
    March 14, 2024, 8:25 p.m.

    I don't think I attacked anything. I said the list of objections you posted is mostly political opinion. Nor am I praising California's policies in these matters. Even people who 'are as liberal as they come' can have opinions that differ dramatically from a liberal-leaning government institution. The other letter is yet another letter from California educators expressing unhappiness with something California has done. There must be a treasure trove of them out there.

    I myself dislike a lot about what the state of California does, including many of the educational policies. The same goes for Texas, Florida, New York, or the rest of them that don't draw as much buzz. Fundamentally, both major political sides in the US get some things right and some things wrong. It's inevitable.

    Despite anyone's fondness for pulling up references about specific things to praise or disparage whatever it is they like to praise or disparage, there's always the same basic undercurrent driving it. Like the rest of us, you have pre-formed opinions on everything. Like the rest of us, you prefer to avoid having those pre-formed opinions challenged, and would much rather see them reinforced. People have to work hard to really open themselves to opposing ideologies, so it's work that often goes undone, or at least poorly done, and the status quo remains the status quo. That's why threads like this can accomplish little or nothing that even approaches a realm of common agreement.

  • March 15, 2024, 2:26 p.m.

    No, they 'don't just go nuts'. They act in a way that seems to them to be rational when put against a narrative that they have come to believe. In fact the more rational they are the worse it becomes and the more completely they become deranged trying to fix reality to fit the narrative. I have had experience of a few people who navigate life by telling lies. The more effective liars construct a self consistent narrative for their lies. In the end they do go nuts, they come to believe that their counterfactual narrative is the actual truth - their rationality survives but reality goes.

    If you study the history of revolutionary movements, both right and left, the playbook is the same. First you develop a narrative that feeds the discontent of a significant demographic in the population. That narrative entails the core idea that the current order is corrupt and rigged against them. The corruption is proposed to systematic if you're a left wing revolutionary, and want to change the economic order, and conspiratorial if you're a right wing revolutionary and are trying to take control of the economic order. The corruption narrative explains to its followers why all legal recourse fails - it's not because of the facts, it's because the whole system is apparently rigged. The whole legal system has to be uprooted so that it never charges the one the narrative says are innocent and convicts ant opponents of the narrative, regardless of any factual evidence against them. This narrative will usually entail the demonisation of sections of the society outside the target demographic. Very often these sections are delineated by ethnic origin. These people are dehumanised and radical ways proposed to exclude them. They are made to be the target for hatred, strengthening the emotional strength of the narrative.

    This playbook has been followed time and again in different societies, with the same disastrous results for those societies. If it happens in the USA, the disastrous results will be for the whole world, because of the pre-eminent position of the USA. Imagine what the run-up to an extreme right take-over of the USA would look like. You'd see a whole movement growing around a narrative that didn't fit with the facts, and that mismatch being explained by the corruption of the basic structures of society, the legal system, the media, the civil service and so on. You'd see a propaganda machine put in place promoting that narrative. You'd see promotion of a 'strong' leader, who was going to sort this all out. The program of the strong leader would include making radical changes to the justice system so that the program and its advocates could not be challenged in court. You'd see proposals to suspend the constitution where it blocked this program. You'd see a program to cast doubt on the integrity of the election process, so that election results can be dismissed or overturned when they go the wrong way. You'd see armed groups assembled in support of the takeover. That is what has happened in all of the collapses of democratic states into authoritarianship that we have seen. Sometimes the takeover itself occurs when this mobilised minority can win an election due to vagaries of the electoral system. Sometimes it happens with a coup. Either way, the end result is always calamitous.

    Political scientists would call this phenomenon 'fascism' (after the prototype, Mussolini's Fascist movement) and it happens all too often. The symptoms of the infection are quite clear, and those that wish to avoid the deadly effects of the disease need to recognise those symptoms and take preventative measures. The sad fact is that even good people can get caught up in the disease, because it preys on basic human nature and corrupts it. It's the cancer of democracy, and you can't blame individual cells for becoming cancerous. So no blame on individuals, it just needs to be recognised.

  • Members 878 posts
    March 15, 2024, 3 p.m.

    [deleted]

  • Members 166 posts
    March 15, 2024, 3:14 p.m.

    That's exactly what I'd like to see more of. I'll check it out.

  • March 15, 2024, 3:56 p.m.

    and not in the extreme right version?

  • March 15, 2024, 4:41 p.m.

    Care to give a few examples of the extreme left controlling your life?

    I would also be interested to know in what respect any of those places is 'extreme right'.

  • March 15, 2024, 5:29 p.m.

    So far as 'derogatory term', I've kept out of the use of terms in a derogatory sense with some care. I've tried to just use terms with a generally accepted meaning in that sense. My contribution didn't talk about 'extreme right' at all.

    'Right' and 'left' are about more than economy. What I'm wondering though is what you mean by 'free economy'. Which characteristics would indicate a 'free economy'?

  • Members 878 posts
  • March 15, 2024, 6:06 p.m.

    It seemed more polite to ask you to clarify what you meant rather than launching in and getting it wrong. So instead I googled on 'characteristics of a free economy'. The term itself didn't get any hits. Instead I got 'characteristics of a free-market economy'. Taking the first hit, I got four characteristics, which were: 1 - Property Rights, 2 - Freedom of Private Enterprise, 3 - Profits and Prices: Incentives and Information, 4 - Competitive Markets.

    I'm not sure that HK, Singapore or Switzerland (all of which I have been to and am quite familiar with) differ much with respect to the USA, UK or for that matter the EU with respect to 1, 2 and 4. So I'm guessing that it's about 3, which seems to come down to taxation policy. Please correct me if I've made an incorrect assumption. Any way, Switzerland's taxation is higher wrt GDP than is the USA's. HK and Singapore is about half, but they are not strictly comparable. Both are city states (HK not strictly a state) which don't need to maintain infrastructure such as extensive long distance transport networks. For instance, HK has 7 million people per major airport, Singapore 5.5 million, the USA 1.5. In addition neither HK nor Singapore spends a significant amount of its GDP on defence whilst the USA spends 3.5%. In short, my impression that both have a lower taxation level than the USA not because they are 'far right' but due to geography and demographics. All three states maintain predominantly publicly funded healthcare systems, which could be an inverse indicator of right-wing-ness. All three maintain extensive publicly funded education systems. All three maintain mandatory and publicly subsidised sickness and unemployment protection schemes. None of them looks to me to be significantly more 'right' than what you have in the USA. Indeed, in some ways they are more 'socialist', which is why I asked what you meant by a 'free economy'.

    BTW, still yet to see any examples of how the 'extreme left' is controlling your life in the USA.