• March 28, 2023, 5:27 p.m.

    I can't say anything about DPR moderation (on my favourite forum moderators seemed to bode well).
    But I have been moderator or adimistrator on some forums (long time ago) and I have watched moderators work on some big platforms, like StackOverflow.

    I have some suggestions or ideas to discuss.

    First, can we have some kind of Flag or Report button in postings (in addition to Like button)? This makes moderators life much easier - bad postings are always reported and moderator doesn't need to scan all new threads and postings. In some future we will start having spam accounts and then quick reporting to all moderators is pretty helpful.

    Second (from StackOverflow) - maybe we can introduce moderator elections? Of course currently it would not be easy, but after some months it would be clear, which users are better suited for moderation tasks.

    Third (from StackOverflow again) - maybe for closing threads more than one vote is needed? Actually on stackoverflow any user, having enough reputation, is able to cast vote to close thread - and he must select reason to it also. After three votes thread is closed - and then votes to open thread can be casted. Well, there threads consists of question and answers; thread author has always ability to edit their question.
    This idea introduces some kind of power user status, can be calculated automatically, based on likes/flags count or similar metrics.

    Fourth - I would oppose to moderator ability to ban users singlehandedly. Yes, moderator should be able to place temporary ban/block (eg for spammers) - but final decision must be collective action.

    Just ideas :)

  • Members 626 posts
    March 28, 2023, 5:32 p.m.

    Did already asked for an option for reporting/flagging threads:
    dprevived.com/t/reporting-threads-and-or-replies-option/231/#post-1507

  • Members 153 posts
    March 28, 2023, 5:33 p.m.

    We've had many discussions on this. I see you joined, so I'll tag along. :) Up until now I was planning on following anotherMike's lead when he said it was 20 yrs and maybe that was enough. I've been around DPR for 11 yrs and maybe that is enough in a photography forum.

    I've had dozens of posts removed, threatened bans, temporary bans - more than I can count. As I'd tell the mods, they moderate like it's North Korea.

    I have no idea if they are following someone else's directive or if it's their own. The "broken record" rule was introduced, but it only applied one way. On a personal level, PM'ing back and forth, they seemed like decent fellows.

    But if it were me, I'd start with a clean slate. Not sure what the guidelines are for selecting a moderator, but I think I'd throw them away, and get someone with some fairness and a sense of humor.

  • Members 621 posts
    March 28, 2023, 5:40 p.m.

    Good to see you here!

  • Members 30 posts
    March 28, 2023, 5:52 p.m.

    I've been reading DPR since the year 2000, but did not sign up until 2006; I am not a very prolific poster with a polite attitude by nature. A few years ago I was banned for "bashing" one of the New York city based big camera stores. All I actually did was to express my frustration after a very bad customer service experience with such store and pointed to their history of racists legal troubles. This apparently did not sit well with another member (former moderator) which instigated the current one, resulting in my temporary banning. Sad but true.

  • Members 51 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:02 p.m.

    personally i'd like to see a clean slate with no hangover from the past with moderators

  • Members 6 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:04 p.m.

    Some moderators don't understand that for fair moderation you have to completely detach from any personal bias on what is being discussed about. There are two basic rulebooks: the forum rules, and the moral code. If you adhere to both by the letter, you'll have no problems moderating. Some people complained to me when I deleted a clear brand bashing post, and my response was simple, is in the forum rules. I'm just enforcing them. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't care less for the specific brand, but rules are rules.

    I remember a user called dennis which heavily and sarcastically trolled the forum. It was ridiculous, really. Trying to make him behave I only resorted to sandboxing or temp bans for the most aggressive rule breaking events, but he kept going and going. Until one day when he said publicly that his behavior was a social experiment on how stupid people behave to trolling. That was the end of it.

    In 11 years I never encountered anyone else like him.

  • Members 1737 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:09 p.m.

    I have been co-moderating the DPR MF Forum for a quite a while, although my co moderators have changed. In the latest iteration, there are three of us. We make moderation decisions by consensus, unless one of us in involved in the thread for which we are considering action; then that person stays out of the moderation decision making. I like the intent of the new DPR moderation rules, but I think they are a net loss compared to the old ones, which were more explicit. I am for explicit rules that everybody can see, but there will always be gray areas. I am also for light moderation, but I think that people should refrain from personal attacks. I like the old rule about not discussing moderation actions in the forum, but it has the downside of reducing transparency.

    I am also an active participant in the the DPR MF forum, and that seems to work out alright. However, when I was modding the Nikon Z forum, some people objected to my doing both, and I dropped the mod role. The idea of cross-moderation has some merit, but I personally wouldn't put in the time to read a bunch of posts in a forum about which I cared little.

    If you have seen some of the stuff the mods have to deal with, I doubt you'd say we don't need moderation.

    Jim

  • Members 12 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:12 p.m.

    I think the best moderator on DPReview was Olga Johnson who sadly passed away and only got some obituary credit from DPReview admins after some uproar from members. She was the ideal of a moderator.
    As for the worst just look at the Feedback forum on DP Review 27 threads locked on the first page. And why is this moderator usurping a sole right to start threads on DPReview closure is beyond me. I know of three very valuable Portrait Forum participants (not me) that he rudely chased away without any accountability

  • Members 54 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:41 p.m.

    A problem is that there is no way to have a clear definition of abusive behavior (or whatever the standard may be) - in many cases it's a matter of "I know it when I see it", so you're left with the judgment of moderators. Some cases are obvious, others are not. I doubt you can do better than appoint good moderators and have an appeals process.

  • Members 3 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:51 p.m.

    Well I had a bad experience with Marti on the Nikon Forum. The Nikon 1 system seemed to be dead and all sorts of Nikonians were asking the question what people thought of the situation. I replied that if it wasn't dead it seriously need a pacemaker since it seemed nothing new resurfaced nor any news from Nikon. So I got banned because "you have no nikon 1 gear in your list and you make snide remarks". When I asked if he could point me to it, my posts were "editted". Sure enough it was dead and it had been so for a year I think without any news from Nikon. I would like to add that I did not mention it with any glee. I like more systems, not less.

    Then people were discussing mFT cams on the Sony NEx forum and being negative and trying to talk someone out of switching to mFTs. That is fine with me, but I pointed out that Sony 6300 and 6500 had their own problems namely issues with overheating which was something to consider...I also noted that dpreview was pretty good at pointing minor flaws in other cams, but the overheating (which was really prominent in many reviews) was barely discussed but nevertheless something to note.
    Now again Marti58 was a moderator and just banned me for 7 days on all forums. When I asked why exactly I was given no reason other than "you are making up stories ot discredit Sony camera's."

    So basically his point of view seemed to be that if you did not own a cam, you should not be discussing it even though the discussion was not about things you could only know using it. I never ever started a thread on these forums, just replied. But no.

    So I replied (and that is may be the take away for me when it comes to moderation): "Moderating should be based on things a person factually said, otherwise it is censorship in which "facts" that others find difficult to swallow need to be eradicated."

    Also: when I asked for feedback afterwards I never ever got a reply from anyone of the dpreview staff. I think it is all quite bad.

    Edit: Marti58 btw sadly sadly passed away a year or two later, nothing bad about him. In fact he was genuinly a nice guy but here I disagreed with his take on what you can and can't say on a forum.

  • Members 115 posts
    March 28, 2023, 6:58 p.m.

    I think a good moderation floor is toxic behaviour. If sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. are allowed here I for one will quietly show myself out. Hopefully this is not a big ask in a forum dedicated to discussing camera equipment but it is the internet so we'll see. Aside from that, a light hand when it comes to moderation is probably the best starting point. "Stay on topic" is pretty fuzzy but can deal with the more egregious trolling that happens. Ultimately, if an obnoxious BrandFan comes into a thread I can roll my eyes and move on without feeling unwelcome.

    In terms of past moderators transitioning here, I tend to favour the "clean slate" approach in that I don't think legacy moderators should automatically be signed up but neither should they be automatically barred. If they have experience from DPReview then that should be considered as part of their application to moderate here. I'd hope that the user experiences under these moderators would also be considered should any of them put their names forward for the task.

  • Members 173 posts
    March 28, 2023, 7:05 p.m.

    I cant remember the forum any more, but I used to be on one where there was a "Questions For Moderators" subforum that was used both the resolve technical issues with the site as well as to ask questions about locked/deleted threads. That at least provides some transparency.

    I continue to be surprised by what people post on forums and social media. You absolutely need mods.

  • March 28, 2023, 7:46 p.m.

    My to cents.
    Moderation should only have to task.
    1. Move the thread to the right category if needed
    2. Be helpful with questions and try to contribute knowledge to the subject.


    Since here is no twitter or Facebook things should not get overheated to often and every user can help to cool down.
    There might happen some cruel or illegal posts sometime, but hopeful so less we can handle it with low effort.

  • Members 369 posts
    March 28, 2023, 7:52 p.m.

    After 30-years active participation on a combination of Usenet and web forums, I support the general principle that forum moderation is essential. It's important to foster and - when needed - enforce a welcoming, open and helpful environment.

    What does that mean? I believe it means that we should openly discourage and - when needed - shut down personal disputes being played out in public. What would that look like? Suppose I'm involved in a thread topic discussing which camera is best for wildlife photography. I'm advocating for the Nikon Z9 as the best camera. Another person is advocating for the Sony A1. A third is making the case for the Canon R3. Disagreement amongst the three people active in the thread isn't a problem. Disagreement is good. It represents a diversity of opinion and an opportunity for others following the discussion to weigh and consider a range of relevant facts and perspectives. However, we should strive to create a space where members disagree without being disagreeable.

    What do I mean by, "being disagreeable"? I mean redirecting comments from being directed at the topic of discussion to being directed at a participant. I'll use myself as an example. If I respond to a comment by writing, "That's a foolish opinion. It takes a naive person to believe that," I've not focused my comments on the topic. I've crossed a line and am now criticizing the person. I've called them foolish and naive. Those are personal attacks.

    That's the kind of discourse I'd like to see discouraged and - when needed - blocked in the forums. Criticizing, insulting, bullying, or verbally assaulting another member isn't acceptable and shouldn't be tolerated. If exchanges get personal, nudge those involved back on the path of focusing on and discussing the topic. If an exchange continues down the path of tossing ad hominem insults, lock the thread. If a member persists in being a catalyst for taking discussions down a path of becoming personal attacks, ban the member.

    A related issue is so-called "third rail" topics of disucssion. When I was an active member of the "Cloudy Nights" astronomy forum, there was a policy that banned all discussion of politics and religion. While it's not impossible to have reasoned, dispassionate exchanges on those topics, in my experience it's not very likely to happen in a public forum. I would support an open policy of banning all political and religious debate. That is, ban debate where those topics are at the center of the disagreement. If two photographers want to discuss the technical challenges of photographing weddings, christenings, bar mitzvahs, etc., that's another matter. If the religious element is a context within which a discussion of photography is taking place, I'd be inclined to not moderate such an exchange.

    Banning discussion of a limited number of third-rail topics would be a measure preventing discussions from shifting toward a focus on the people involved; their beliefs and values. If a person, their beliefs or values are being targeted in an exchange, that's not appropriate. If the participants in the discussion disagree but that difference of opinion remains focused on a topic relevant to photography, let it play out.

    I would also suggest the admins consider putting in a limiter to help keep exchanges from escalating into personal conflict. One of the tell-tale indicators that a flame war is active, is a long string of posts in which comments are being made every few minutes by the same two people. Typically, one of two things is happening. It's possible the exchange has become personal and friendly. Two members are sharing stories about a common experience. In that case, they should consider taking the exchange off an open, public thread to email or IM. It's also possible the exchange has become personal and unfriendly. In the heat of the moment, the members are hurling personal insults back-and-forth.

    One way of preventing negative exchanges is to limit the number of posts a member can make in a single thread in a 24-hour period. I'll suggest that number be set at 10. Once a person has made 10 posts in any one thread in a given day, they should be blocked from posting in that same thread until the next day starts. Please, note, this isn't a limit of making no more than 10 posts in all threads in a single day. It's a limit of making no more than 10 posts in any given thread in a day. The person who wants to be active and comment in 20 threads could potentially make 200 posts (10 in each of those 20 threads) in a single day. And once the clock strikes midnight, they can start all over again and make another 200 posts the next day.

    It's a policy that would help prevent discussions becoming heated exchanges by imposing a brief cooling off period. It wouldn't inappropriately limit a person's ability to be active on the site or to express themselves. In addition to helping prevent blowups, it's a policy that would also create space for others to participate in active threads. It's less likely that one or two people would dominate the discussion. And it wouldn't require moderator intervention. I recommend this limit only if it can be built into the site design, only if enforcement can be automated. If the software can't automate this kind of limit, I would not want to burden volunteer moderators with the task of enforcing it.

    Another issue that should be discussed, is the potential for discussions to be derailed by posts containing false information. This is a complex issue that does not, in my opinion, have an easy or obvious solution. People make unintentional errors in written communication all the time. Typos and grammatical errors, as unfortunate as they are, should not be treated as the kind of "factual error" needing moderation. Nor should an honest misunderstanding of the facts necessitate moderation. That's something that often gets worked out amongst members. If I make a post saying, "The faster your shutter speed, the more motion blur, you'll get in your photos," and other members respond to correct me by explaining that faster shutter speeds do a better job of freezing movement and eliminating motion blur, there's no need for a moderator to become involved. I posted wrong information. Other members corrected the error. As long as I don't persist in pushing the misinformed view that faster shutter speeds lead to increased motion blur, there isn't an issue.

    I also don't believe it appropriate to expect volunteer moderators to "fact check" every post. That's a lot of responsibility and burden to put on a person who 1) is volunteering their time, 2) should be able to participate in discussions just as any other member does and 3) should only have to put on the moderator hat and intervene on the rare occasion a member is crossing a red line.

    All that said, there is value in forums that cater to the needs and interests of the novice photographer in ensuring that questions of fact are being responded to with accurate information. A diversity of opinion is not just something to be tolerated; that is something to be encouraged. However, questions about how cameras work and how the various settings directly affect the photograph being made are largely questions of fact. As such, they deserve factually accurate responses. One of the biggest disappointments I've had in recent years on DP Review, is the surprising number of threads in the "Beginners Questions" forum in which a question about what f-stop, shutter speed, and ISO settings do is accurately answered within a few hours only to have a forum member chime in to promote the so-called "exposure triangle" as the learning tool that explains all things photographic.

    So, how do we create an environment in which basic questions about how cameras and their primary settings work are accurately answered? Perhaps, we do tht by creating an environment in which factually accurate answers stand apart from those that promote misinformation. Perhaps, we should empower moderators to flag a post as being particularly informative or helpful in answering the author's question. Even if 10 responses out of 11 contain misinformation, if the moderator can flag the one accurate response so it stands out from the crowd, maybe that's the best way to foster an environment that's helpful toward novices.

    Thank you for considering this input and for the work being done to help make this forum one where all photographers feel welcome, where all photographic genres are celebrated, where the choices people make in the equipment they use is respected and where questions about how to get the most from our cameras and lenses find informed, thoughtful, empowering answers.

  • Members 217 posts
    March 28, 2023, 9:11 p.m.

    The main body of what you are saying is fine, granted.
    However -

    • Personal attacks are calling someone naive these days? Have we become that thin skinned? What if the poster goes on to explain why they are being naive: and makes a very valid point in doing so? What if they are actually being naive? What if someone wrote here that they believe fairies will carry them up to heaven? Personally I'd call that naive but hey, live and let live. We need to be very careful about censoring certain words. Dpreview got plenty North Korea for most of us to last a lifetime.
  • March 28, 2023, 9:15 p.m.

    I have seen a lot of social network Stuff.
    Some strict moderated and some complete without and everything in between.
    Yes some people may go bonkers on some topics and some threads will become unreadable.

    But you should not underrate a good community.
    Some threads may regulate themselves.
    If things get overload we could tighten up later on.
    We will see quite easily if things get to messy.
    But if the user stop to post new content and looses interest because of being to strict will never will find out.

    A part of that I can thing a some features to cool things down if needed.

  • March 28, 2023, 9:17 p.m.

    Bill has made some really good points. Primeshooter has made a subtle amendment to one of them - which is also good.

    What we may be able to do is work on a 'moderator user guide' which will be used by moderators - but available to all. And this is a very good start. If I get some time over the next few days, I'd be happy to make a start on that.

    Alan