• Members 2308 posts
    June 25, 2024, 11:49 a.m.

    they pass the ball pretty fast and this image is taken at close distance. this is electronic shutter.
    DSC05474 copy.jpg

    DSC05474 copy.jpg

    JPG, 6.1 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on June 25, 2024.

  • Members 139 posts
    June 25, 2024, 11:55 a.m.

    Usual outlet: Amateur Photography? I don't see it there?

  • June 25, 2024, 1:09 p.m.

    Will be published 16th July. Fair old lead time. In the meantime I'm happy to expand here, as long as I don't use the same words my opinions are my own.

  • June 25, 2024, 1:14 p.m.

    You can see from the photo that 'pretty fast' is nowhere near as fast as the ball is going in Jared Polin's shot that you referenced. And facts is facts. The Z6 III's electronic shutter traverses more than four times as fast as the A7r II's. The ball in your shot was simply travelling much slower (as you'd expect, given the amount of impulse likely to be imparted on the ball in each case).

  • Foundation 170 posts
    June 25, 2024, 2:21 p.m.
  • Members 139 posts
    June 25, 2024, 2:40 p.m.

    Okay thanks. What interests me is that Canon's R5/R6 II already achieve nearly similar performance. I believe the predicted performance of Z6 III is 1/60 or slightly better than that? The R6 II already achieves 1/68.

    horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/

  • June 25, 2024, 3:47 p.m.

    Yes, I'm not sure how Canon does that. If anyone has a clue, I'm all ears.

  • Members 2308 posts
    June 25, 2024, 10:15 p.m.

    its 1/20 not 1/60 your looing at the wrong section.

  • Members 2308 posts
    June 25, 2024, 10:30 p.m.

    what cracks me up is you have a reviewer critizising rolling shutter and then posts a still image not even a panned image for one of there reference images 🤔 with worst rolling shutter effect.

    Screenshot 2024-06-26 082538.png

    Screenshot 2024-06-26 082538.png

    PNG, 1.1 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on June 25, 2024.

  • June 26, 2024, 7:54 a.m.

    I think you've confused the R6 II and Z6 II. Different cameras from different manufacturers.

  • Members 2308 posts
    June 26, 2024, 8:12 a.m.

    my bad i was too, even the R5 is super fast as well.

  • Members 139 posts
    June 26, 2024, 11:05 a.m.

    Canon's sensors are dual pixel too, so in effect it must be double the number of pixels they have to read?

  • June 26, 2024, 12:29 p.m.

    Most modern sensors have multiple pixels, usually four, sharing a common read transistor. This allows them to be aggregated on reading if required. I suspect that the Canon sensors will be arranged so that the dual pixels can be read separately for rangefinding and together for imaging.
    If pressed to guess what Canon is doing, I would guess it's electronically similar to the 'partially stacked' solution, but using a technically different method. We can run some numbers. A 24MP sensor using separate ADC chips needs 6000 connections within a 36mm distance. If this was done with normal die connection pads this provides for about 60 microns per pad. I've seen bonding pads down to 35 microns, so this is feasible. So the Canon sensor could be integrated at the package level with separate ADC chips connected by bond wire to the sensor chip. In a way it's the same solution. I have no doubt that Canon is technically capable of die-to-wafer 3d ICs, because like Nikon they produce the required alignment systems - but I suspect that Nikon would have torn down every Canon camera there is, and if any was using a 'partially stacked' sensor they wouldn't have claimed the Z6 III as the first.

  • Members 139 posts
    June 26, 2024, 12:53 p.m.

    The Canon R5 also has a fast readout; almost as fast as the R6 II and that's at 45 mp.
    So looks like Canon has implemented faster readouts from non-stacked sensors for a while now. Its surprising that Nikon is making a bit of marketing noise re the Z6 III which only now (after several years) catches up with Canon in terms of performance. Even if this is a different tech.

  • June 26, 2024, 1:02 p.m.

    As Don suggested, it's marketing hype. What matters is the results that are achieved, not the means used to achieve them. Stacked and partially stacked sensors have no value in themselves. The are a means to achieve a goal, not a goal in themselves.
    If I'm right about the multiple dies connected with bonding wires, the main advantage of 3D IC tech would be economy of manufacture. That's not something that the marketing people are likely to make a big fuss about.

  • Members 2308 posts
    June 27, 2024, 3:36 a.m.

    Hi Bob, what are your thoughts quote: The number is likely 2x higher if the readout is double sided - which the limited die shots that have circulated suggest it is. If the ball is moving at 60 mph it would travel approximately 3 inches in 3ms which would be enough to show the observed distortion. It could still be deformation but it is not that clear cut. One potential clue is that, if I recall correctly, the distortion is lateral. The sensor uses column-parallel readout which can't cause lateral distortion I think.

  • June 27, 2024, 8:02 a.m.

    Most of the top-end sensors read out top and bottom - though some Canon sensors have the 'column' lines running along the rows. I found this shot of the R5 sensor on a Canon site
    d1hjkbq40fs2x4.cloudfront.net/2020-07-02/files/canon-eos-r5-image-sensor_2060-04.jpg
    What's interesting is the very large number of bonding pads regularly placed top and bottom. Contrast with a similar pixel count FSI integrated ADC sensor (IMX094)
    cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/72c8db796d612bf6937cd8e52dd32724-650-80.jpg.webp
    Notice two things. One that it has far fewer contacts top and bottom (and that they are irregularly positioned) and that they are connected directly to package lead-out pads. Those connections are absent in the R5, suggesting that the connect to something else inside the package. Notice also that the top and bottom borders on the IMX094 are larger than the side borders, in order to accommodate the ADC circuitry, whereas all the borders on the Canon chip are the same size (though much larger). I'm not saying it's a slam-dunk, but it does support the idea that canon is using a multi-chip package with the ADC chips integrated at the package level.

    As I remember it was a diagonal distortion, which could go both ways.

  • Members 2308 posts
    June 27, 2024, 8:47 a.m.

    thanks for the information, the canon sensor has an extrodinary fast readout speed dual pixel AF but the a7iv even though a slower readout speed on paper is the highest ranked non stacked sensor action camera for autofocus and acuracy right behind all the stacked sensors. 🤔