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Scene luminance has nothing to do with exposure.

DonaldB
June 16, 2023
chat_bubble_outline 577
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  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2439 posts
    June 18, 2023, 11:27 p.m. June 18, 2023, 11:27 p.m.
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    @JimKasson has written:
    @JACS has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Ok the penny has dropped. and i conceive defeat . well sort of

    conclusion: exposure = shutter, t stop, and scene luminance which is displayed by the histogram now we have practical picture (pun) to work off.

    come on guys you have dropped the ball explaining the concept to the limited scientific minds. 😎

    My fees are cheap if you want to quote my conclusion. 😁

    The in camera histogram does not measure scene luminance. It’s affected by other things, too.

    www.image-engineering.de/content/library/conference_papers/before_2009/luminance_meters.pdf

    The word "histogram" does not even appear there.

    Yup.

    image.png

    it was just a good article about luminance. and does contradict many members writings here.

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    June 18, 2023, 11:36 p.m. June 18, 2023, 11:36 p.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    it was just a good article about luminance.

    But you need to understand it.

    @DonaldB has written:

    and does contradict many members writings here.

    As I said, you misunderstood the article.
    Feel free to ask questions.

    DannoLeftForums and IanSForsyth like this.

    favorite 2

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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    June 18, 2023, 11:40 p.m. June 18, 2023, 11:40 p.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    Which article?
    Which histogram?
    What is exposure level?

    DannoLeftForums and IanSForsyth like this.

    favorite 2

  • link
    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 18, 2023, 11:58 p.m. June 18, 2023, 11:58 p.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    it was just a good article about luminance. and does contradict many members writings here.

    Not sure what you're talking about. Be explicit about the contradictions that you see. List them.

    DannoLeftForums and IanSForsyth like this.

    favorite 2

  • link
    Deleted Removed user
    June 19, 2023, 2:08 a.m. June 19, 2023, 2:08 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    This one? (not a trap)

    capturetheatlas.com/how-to-read-a-histogram-in-photography/

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2439 posts
    June 19, 2023, 4 a.m. June 19, 2023, 4 a.m.
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    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    Which article?
    Which histogram?
    What is exposure level?

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2439 posts
    June 19, 2023, 4:02 a.m. June 19, 2023, 4:02 a.m.
    link
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    This one? (not a trap)

    capturetheatlas.com/how-to-read-a-histogram-in-photography/

    no but it says the same as this one.

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

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    TimoK
    Members 300 posts
    June 19, 2023, 4:30 a.m. June 19, 2023, 4:30 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    Which article?
    Which histogram?
    What is exposure level?

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

    I don't find "Exposure levels" there.

  • link
    Deleted Removed user
    June 19, 2023, 4:30 a.m. June 19, 2023, 4:30 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    This one? (not a trap)

    capturetheatlas.com/how-to-read-a-histogram-in-photography/

    no but it says the same as this one.

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

    Word for word, interesting, thanks.

    DonaldB likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2439 posts
    June 19, 2023, 4:40 a.m. June 19, 2023, 4:40 a.m.
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    @TimoK has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    Which article?
    Which histogram?
    What is exposure level?

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

    I don't find "Exposure levels" there.

    keep reading

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2439 posts
    June 19, 2023, 4:43 a.m. June 19, 2023, 4:43 a.m.
    link
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    This one? (not a trap)

    capturetheatlas.com/how-to-read-a-histogram-in-photography/

    no but it says the same as this one.

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

    Word for word, interesting, thanks.

    I like the wording.

    Identical exposure settings shutter+apeture+iso

    Screenshot (6).png

    Screenshot (5).png

    Screenshot (6).png

    PNG, 1.9Β MB, uploaded by DonaldB on June 19, 2023.

    Screenshot (5).png

    PNG, 2.0Β MB, uploaded by DonaldB on June 19, 2023.

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    IanSForsyth
    Members 216 posts
    June 19, 2023, 5:02 a.m. June 19, 2023, 5:02 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    conclusion: exposure = shutter, t stop, and scene luminance which is displayed by the histogram now we have practical picture (pun) to work off.

    what does these histogram tell you about the exposure
    photos.smugmug.com/Temp/Temp/i-snFsM5B/0/b8153607/O/exp3.jpg
    Notice how the patches show differently in the 2 histogram even when they represent the same lab values.
    How those values are shown in a histogram vary depending on what that distribution of data represents in a color space.
    (both are of jpg images and not raw)

  • link
    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    June 19, 2023, 5:03 a.m. June 19, 2023, 5:03 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    Identical exposure settings shutter+apeture+iso

    So what? I don't see the point you are trying to make.

    When using flash you have 2 exposures* to deal with - the ambient exposure* and the flash exposure*

    The flash exposure* can be set automatically by the camera using ETTL or manually.

    Even though the aperture, shutter speed and ISO are the same in both shots the total exposure* for Screenshot(5) was larger because more light from the scene hit the sensor due to the additional light added to the scene by the flash.

    The 2 luminosity histograms are about what I would have expected for those shots.

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open

  • link
    TimoK
    Members 300 posts
    June 19, 2023, 5:09 a.m. June 19, 2023, 5:09 a.m.
    link
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @xpatUSA has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Quote: A histogram is simply a graphic representation of the exposure levels within an image.

    Just levels, Donald, not "exposure levels".

    the article i read said exposure levels.

    This one? (not a trap)

    capturetheatlas.com/how-to-read-a-histogram-in-photography/

    no but it says the same as this one.

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

    Word for word, interesting, thanks.

    Both articles are misleading. Capturetheatlas more because he determines the exposure using LR histogram, not the RAW one.
    Artschoolportals article is better but I don't like the way they use PS Levels as example of exposure.

  • link
    IanSForsyth
    Members 216 posts
    June 19, 2023, 5:09 a.m. June 19, 2023, 5:09 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    Identical exposure settings shutter+apeture+iso

    They are not here is a hint for part of the scene you introduced more light thus altering the exposure

  • link
    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    June 19, 2023, 5:16 a.m. June 19, 2023, 5:16 a.m.
    link
    @IanSForsyth has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Identical exposure settings shutter+apeture+iso

    They are not here is a hint for part of the scene you introduced more light thus altering the exposure

    The exif for the shots shows the aperture, shutter speed and ISO are identical for both shots but the exposure* is not the same as described earlier.

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open

  • link
    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    June 19, 2023, 5:25 a.m. June 19, 2023, 5:25 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:

    no but it says the same as this one.

    artschoolportal.com/2016/11/light-meters-exposure/

    You are misunderstanding what is explained in those articles.

    Consider this image with pure red (255,0,0), green (0,255,0) and blue (0,0,255) pixels on a pure white (255,255,255) background.

    rgbDemo.jpg

    This is the RGB histogram for the image.

    rgbDemo_histogram.jpg

    This is the luminosity histogram for the same image.

    rgbDemo_lumHistogram.jpg

    A histogram of any kind - RGB, Luminosity, whatever - is just a frequency count of some values - RGB, luminosity, the number of various coloured cars crossing an intersection etc etc etc - and nothing more.

    What Is Happening Under The Histogram Hood

    rgbDemo_lumHistogram.jpg

    JPG, 24.4Β KB, uploaded by DannoLeftForums on June 19, 2023.

    rgbDemo_histogram.jpg

    JPG, 59.6Β KB, uploaded by DannoLeftForums on June 19, 2023.

    rgbDemo.jpg

    JPG, 22.7Β KB, uploaded by DannoLeftForums on June 19, 2023.

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2439 posts
    June 19, 2023, 6:18 a.m. June 19, 2023, 6:18 a.m.
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    @IanSForsyth has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    Identical exposure settings shutter+apeture+iso

    They are not here is a hint for part of the scene you introduced more light thus altering the exposure

    im not disputing that. have you a better way to show scene luminance ?

    ggbutcher likes this.

    favorite 1

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