• Members 3952 posts
    April 22, 2023, 2:26 a.m.

    That's BS. The first image has clear visible noise and in the second you increased the exposure* by a little over 4 stops, so of course there will be less visible noise. Any modern reputable camera will have less visible noise when you increase the exposure*

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
    ** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
    *** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

  • Members 369 posts
    April 22, 2023, 2:49 a.m.

    He said, "a detector." The human eye is a detector and one of the impacts of a low SNR on visual observation is difficulty detecting low-contrast extended objects.

  • Members 510 posts
    April 22, 2023, 2:52 a.m.

    My old Prof. “Doc” Williams always maintained that the acronym BS meant Brilliant Statistics. lol

  • Members 3952 posts
    April 22, 2023, 3:01 a.m.

    hmmmmm.......I always thought it meant "Beautifully Silly" or "Boringly Silly", not sure which 🤔

  • Members 435 posts
    April 22, 2023, 3:49 a.m.

    Ummm, yum wats up doc's.

    Tell you what us real simple plain old people do down here on earth. We gets that EVF eye thingy in a mirrorless body off auto stuff. Then what we does do, is get it to look right and then just goes to ourselves..........

    Yeah that looks real fine, click, click, click.Try dat, works mighty fine.

    Ehhh, dats all folks.

    Dunny...... Oops I mean Danny.

  • Members 2306 posts
    April 22, 2023, 3:49 a.m.

    i was referring to noun categories, open the link , as ive been saying forever ,exposure has many meanings. and the major companies use the one that's most fitting for the majority to understand.

  • Members 3952 posts
    April 22, 2023, 4:27 a.m.

    So what? Of course the word exposure can have different meanings. Some will say it's how light or dark an image looks and others will give the correct technical definition - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open.

    If I went up to any camera manufacturer's engineers and said I can change the image lightness in camera without altering the exposure* at all, they will say yep, that is correct. You don't have to change the exposure* to make an image lighter or darker. It really is as simple as that 😄

    Marketing/sales people and technical writers not fully understanding the basic 101 concepts of photography will write in manuals words to the effect of exposure being how light or dark an image looks, which is wrong and not even technically correct.

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
    ** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
    *** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

  • Members 243 posts
    April 24, 2023, 2:02 p.m.

    Very cool! A friend of mine owns a business selling racing memorabilia and ended up with Mark's Indy 500 winning driver's suit. Apparently Mark got into an accident at Road Atlanta later in the season and broke his leg so the leg of the suit was cut off, but a corner worker ended up with the whole suit somehow. My friend used some of the images in one of my books to ID it as that suit. Bought it for 1k, flipped it for 15k.

  • Members 1076 posts
    April 25, 2023, 3 p.m.

    we can. but embarrassment doesn't fit into it...

  • Members 2306 posts
    April 25, 2023, 9:23 p.m.

    how can you get embarrassed over a discussion on the relevance of the term exposure in 2023. it went out practical use with the advent of in-camera metering systems 50 years ago. shutter+apeture+iso is relevant today. funny how fixed asa/iso is never brought up in the discussions.

  • Members 3952 posts
    April 25, 2023, 10:45 p.m.

    He might have been referring to when you made a fool out of yourself when you started a thread asking which of the 2 histograms you posted in the op was the raw histogram when in fact neither of them was a histogram of the actual raw data.

    Also "shutter+apeture+iso", as you mentioned, is relevant if the goal is a nice looking sooc jpeg.

    ISO is not relevant if the goal is to maximise the quality of the raw data.

  • Members 170 posts
    April 25, 2023, 11:07 p.m.

    It's not relevant the way DonaldB claims it too be, but the ISO setting is relevant to maximising the quality of the raw data, as long as your camera isn't ISO-invariant.

  • Members 3952 posts
    April 25, 2023, 11:15 p.m.

    Yes, technically you are correct but with the type of photos I take, ISO's affect on dynamic range and read noise is negligible, hence not relevant for me.

    The amount of exposure* is by far the largest influence on the quality of the raw data.

  • Members 457 posts
    April 25, 2023, 11:37 p.m.

    Since you are using Auto-ISO you may not notice it, but for many cameras, the dual conversion gain helps with noise in shadows.

  • Members 280 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:10 p.m.

    People who were rich enough to employ servants had the same problem.
    Don

  • Members 280 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:22 p.m.

    Photons are particles.
    But so is dust, which is probably what DonaldB is thinking of.

    One cause of noise in photos is that the photons arrive at the sensor in a random distribution, like a crowd arriving for a football match, not in an even distribution like soldiers on parade.

    Don Cox

  • Members 140 posts
    April 27, 2023, 1:24 p.m.

    But when you look at Jim’s photographs, he’s an artist. He’s exceptional.

  • Members 140 posts
    April 27, 2023, 1:31 p.m.

    But in general, the ISO setting matters.

    My opinion is that the better answer to ISO and Noise and Exposure questions in general should first be about Lighting. There’s a very important step we all have to take as we progress as photographers, which is developing the ability to “see” light the way the camera will capture it. That is, the difference between how we perceive the living world with our eyes and how it will be rendered as a photograph, and how the lighting impacts it and how we can modify the light or seek out better light to produce better results.

    I know this to be true, yet it seems very difficult for other forum experts to say this simple truth. It’s infinitely more important than understanding how photons scatter on a sensor.