The statement that the lightest element in the scene has a reflectance of 100% seems to ignore specularity.
The statement that the lightest element in the scene has a reflectance of 100% seems to ignore specularity.
@xpatUSA has written: @JimKasson has written: @DonCox has written:I suggest sticking to the traditional 18%.
For raw sooters, 18% is too high for digital sensors, which clip, as opposed to negative film, which has a shoulder. There's an argument to be made that 12.5% is too high.
Doug Kerr addresses 12.5% vs. 18% here ...
Doug Kerr has written:For a camera calibrated in accordance with that standard, metering on a 12.5% reflectance card will result in the image of a scene item with a reflectance of 100% being one-half stop below saturation (the "half-stop headroom" outlook on exposure).
... and in much more detail here
In my view, Kerr's opinion in such matters trumps all others but, for Beginners, he can be a little too detailed.
The statement that the lightest element in the scene has a reflectance of 100% seems to ignore specularity.
It is an assumption made for the purposes of the following text in the link.
Beginners please note that "the statement" does not apply to all scenes in the Real World
@JimKasson has written:The statement that the lightest element in the scene has a reflectance of 100% seems to ignore specularity.
It is an assumption made for the purposes of the following text in the link.
Beginners please note that "the statement" does not apply to all scenes in the Real World
Or even most real world scenes.
@DonCox has written:I suggest sticking to the traditional 18%.
For raw sooters, 18% is too high for digital sensors, which clip, as opposed to negative film, which has a shoulder. There's an argument to be made that 12.5% is too high.
The Brightness Scale of Exterior Scenes and the Computation of Correct Photographic Exposure
LOYD A. JONES AND H. R. CONDIT
Kodak Research Laboratories, Eastman Kodak Company, Rochester, New York
@xpatUSA has written:12.5% vs. 18%
The 18% card positioned as Kodak are suggesting reflects ≈12.7%.
For meter calibration constants K=12.5 and C≈330 (Canon, Nikon):
reflectance R = 100 * π * K / C ≈ 12%.
Covered here
(6.5 So can we use an 18% card anyway? Now, knowing that a target card with a reflectance of 12.7% is perhaps most appropriate for gray card incident light metering, can we still use our 18% reflectance gray cards? Absolutely—we make an exposure measurement on the 18% gray card with a reflected light meter and then use 1/2 stop greater exposure for the shot. In fact the Kodak 18% gray cards today have a little sticker on them directing the user to do just that! So why don’t we find 12.7% gray cards sold? Beats me.)
Beginners please note that owning and using a Kodak 18% gray card in the manner referred to by @IliahBorg would be almost unheard of these days, although the principles mentioned by Kerr remain true to this day.
@IliahBorg has written: @xpatUSA has written:12.5% vs. 18%
The 18% card positioned as Kodak are suggesting reflects ≈12.7%.
For meter calibration constants K=12.5 and C≈330 (Canon, Nikon):
reflectance R = 100 * π * K / C ≈ 12%.Covered here
Doug Kerr has written:(6.5 So can we use an 18% card anyway? Now, knowing that a target card with a reflectance of 12.7% is perhaps most appropriate for gray card incident light metering, can we still use our 18% reflectance gray cards? Absolutely—we make an exposure measurement on the 18% gray card with a reflected light meter and then use 1/2 stop greater exposure for the shot. In fact the Kodak 18% gray cards today have a little sticker on them directing the user to do just that! So why don’t we find 12.7% gray cards sold? Beats me.)
I know ;)
@xpatUSA has written: @IliahBorg has written: @xpatUSA has written:12.5% vs. 18%
The 18% card positioned as Kodak are suggesting reflects ≈12.7%.
For meter calibration constants K=12.5 and C≈330 (Canon, Nikon):
reflectance R = 100 * π * K / C ≈ 12%.Covered here
Doug Kerr has written:(6.5 So can we use an 18% card anyway? Now, knowing that a target card with a reflectance of 12.7% is perhaps most appropriate for gray card incident light metering, can we still use our 18% reflectance gray cards? Absolutely—we make an exposure measurement on the 18% gray card with a reflected light meter and then use 1/2 stop greater exposure for the shot. In fact the Kodak 18% gray cards today have a little sticker on them directing the user to do just that! So why don’t we find 12.7% gray cards sold? Beats me.)
I know ;)
Does it relate to this?
www.aghost.net/images/e0186601/ahistorylessonofrailroadtracks.pdf
Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in
the matter of wheel spacing. Therefore, the United States standard
railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original
specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot.
In other words, bureaucracies live forever.
@SrMi has written:We do not need raw histograms when shooting at higher ISOs. Is that correct?
If the statement applies to all digital cameras, it is not correct - sorry.
It does not apply to cameras where the sensor output is amplified according to the ISO setting before being input to the ADC. Therefore, it is incorrect for most digital cameras.
It is most definitely incorrect, technically, to conflate "relatively ISO-invariant" with "totally-ISO-irrelevant" or "ISO-less", but there are differences in opinion, based on individual experience, that cause people to draw the line at different points in the sand as to whether the difference is practically relevant. Jim and I probably see the underlying empirical facts in a similar way, but we have very different editorial comments on practice, resulting from our own different subject matter.
@JimKasson has written: @xpatUSA has written: @SrMi has written:We do not need raw histograms when shooting at higher ISOs. Is that correct?
If the statement applies to all digital cameras, it is not correct - sorry.
It does not apply to cameras where the sensor output is amplified according to the ISO setting before being input to the ADC. Therefore, it is incorrect for most digital cameras.It's not as important at higher ISOs because you can leave extra headroom with little penalty, at the same exposure.
I guess the word "need" muddies the issue.
So, "We do not need raw histograms when shooting" would also be true. I withdraw my response/
When Sigma introduced an AFE into some models, there was a lot of whining about blown highlights compared to the sensor headroom provided by non-AFE models. My SD9 ISO "knob" remains super-glued at 100 ... LOL.
On the opposite extreme is a camera like the Nikon D5, which still has some of the lowest pre-gain read noise in the industry, but has about the worst post-gain read noise in the industry, with currently-produced cameras. The newer on-sensor column-ADC designs are somewhere in-between.
Jim and I probably see the underlying empirical facts in a similar way, but we have very different editorial comments on practice, resulting from our own different subject matter.
And probably different opinions on what are acceptable amounts of image noise. Almost all the time, I call the image too noisy before the read noise begins to play a role in the visible noise.
@IliahBorg has written: @xpatUSA has written: @IliahBorg has written: @xpatUSA has written:12.5% vs. 18%
The 18% card positioned as Kodak are suggesting reflects ≈12.7%.
For meter calibration constants K=12.5 and C≈330 (Canon, Nikon):
reflectance R = 100 * π * K / C ≈ 12%.Covered here
Doug Kerr has written:(6.5 So can we use an 18% card anyway? Now, knowing that a target card with a reflectance of 12.7% is perhaps most appropriate for gray card incident light metering, can we still use our 18% reflectance gray cards? Absolutely—we make an exposure measurement on the 18% gray card with a reflected light meter and then use 1/2 stop greater exposure for the shot. In fact the Kodak 18% gray cards today have a little sticker on them directing the user to do just that! So why don’t we find 12.7% gray cards sold? Beats me.)
I know ;)
Does it relate to this?
www.aghost.net/images/e0186601/ahistorylessonofrailroadtracks.pdf
Quoted message:Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in
the matter of wheel spacing. Therefore, the United States standard
railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original
specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot.
In other words, bureaucracies live forever.
Yes, because Kodak was once arguably a "bureaucracy" in the World of Photography, probably long before I.S.O.
On the opposite extreme is a camera like the Nikon D5, which still has some of the lowest pre-gain read noise in the industry, but has about the worst post-gain read noise in the industry, with currently-produced cameras.
Indeed:
blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/nikon-d5-read-noise-vs-iso-setting/
Yes, because was Kodak was once arguably a "bureaucracy" in the World of Photography, probably long before I.S.O.
And then there's QWERTY.
@bobn2 has written:'Fake ISO' is a little misleading. These settings in general conform to 12232 - they might not allow enough headroom for a full brightness range, but 12232 doesn't specify how much headroom there should be. Some Panasonics had negative headroom at base ISO.
Over the years I've taken my share of grief for calling them that. I remain unrepentant.
On the Sony a7RIV, when you select iSO 50, it gives you the same raw file as if you had picked ISO 100, and it dims the image in the finder and the JPEG preview image and makes the histogram lie to you. It also tells the raw developer to pull the image by a stop. You could get the same raw file by just setting the EC to overexpose by a stop.
It gets worse. On the Sony a7RIV, when you select iSO 80, it gives you the same raw file as if you had picked ISO 160! When you select iSO 64, it gives you the same raw file as if you had picked ISO 125!
"Irrationally implemented" and "fake" are two different things, IMO.
@SrMi has written: @DannoLeftForums has written:which made no sense to me because I cannot see how you can underexpose while keeping the exposure unchanged.
Because your definition of "underexpose" is different from the most common one (making image darker).
In a beginners environment imo it is even more important to use the correct terms to describe things. Using different meanings for a word depending on the context can only lead to confusion and misconceptions for beginners.
The rule of forum efficiency goes something like this: make your posts 15% shorter by dropping relevant qualifying terms or conditionals to avoid seeming too meticulous, and suffer 5x as many posts from the resulting confusion.
@DannoLeftForums has written: @SrMi has written: @DannoLeftForums has written:which made no sense to me because I cannot see how you can underexpose while keeping the exposure unchanged.
Because your definition of "underexpose" is different from the most common one (making image darker).
In a beginners environment imo it is even more important to use the correct terms to describe things. Using different meanings for a word depending on the context can only lead to confusion and misconceptions for beginners.
The rule of forum efficiency goes something like this: make your posts 15% shorter by dropping relevant qualifying terms or conditionals to avoid seeming too meticulous, and suffer 5x as many posts from the resulting confusion.
... and to never capitalize stuff like "imo" because it makes sentences wider and less abstruse ..
... (distant whine) ... "but im on my smartphone" 😋
Quoted message:Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in
the matter of wheel spacing. Therefore, the United States standard
railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original
specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot.
In other words, bureaucracies live forever.
G.W. Whistler used 5', that was 1524 mm, establishing a new bureaucracy ;)
@Quarkcharmed has written:If you rely on the in-camera RGB histogram, you never get blown highlights (well unless there's a little amount of blown pixels below histogram's resolution).
That is not my experience with Sony, Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad, and Fuji cameras.
I have the same problem with my Canon EOS R6. The cut off point on the Y axis is too high (i.e. the number of blown pixels that is deemed to be insignificant), and in certain situations I get blown highlights that are not shown on a histogram, even at "exposure compensation" of -2EV.
David