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Raw Histogram??

WhyNot
May 18, 2023
chat_bubble_outline 305
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  • link
    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    May 20, 2023, 12:33 a.m. May 20, 2023, 12:33 a.m.
    link
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    As a "Plan B" would you be comfortable with "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."?

    Sure. If we're not talking about matrix metering and such.

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2420 posts
    May 20, 2023, 12:35 a.m. May 20, 2023, 12:35 a.m.
    link

    6715.JPG

    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    olympus xz1

    That's one of the very few cameras that are calibrated in raw close to the standard.

    Funny that you should say that. because the exposure settings on that camera were always different than any other camera i owned. now i will compare it to my a74.

    just did the test and the A74 and XZ1 histograms maxed out showed the identical exposure. thats awesome. the olympus playback RGB histogram is unbelevabley detailed.

    1465.jpg

    6715 (2).jpg

    1465.jpg

    JPG, 554.2 KB, uploaded by DonaldB on May 20, 2023.

    6715 (2).jpg

    JPG, 543.0 KB, uploaded by DonaldB on May 20, 2023.

  • link
    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 12:38 a.m. May 20, 2023, 12:38 a.m.
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    @SrMi has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:
    @SrMi has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    which made no sense to me because I cannot see how you can underexpose while keeping the exposure unchanged.

    Because your definition of "underexpose" is different from the most common one (making image darker).

    In a beginners environment imo it is even more important to use the correct terms to describe things. Using different meanings for a word depending on the context can only lead to confusion and misconceptions for beginners.

    Maybe we should avoid using the term under- or overexposure and instead use darkening/brightening.

    Yes, Yes, Yes 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗😎

    That is exactly what I advise people to do and what I actually do in my posts. I say an image is too dark or too light or it needs to be darkened or lightened etc etc.

    If I ever use "under exposed" in any of my posts it is as per the definition in my signature and is why I include the signature for the sake of clarity in my posts.

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
    ** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
    *** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2420 posts
    May 20, 2023, 12:40 a.m. May 20, 2023, 12:40 a.m.
    link
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    you need to rework those tests

    Jim is correct.

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

  • link
    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 12:41 a.m. May 20, 2023, 12:41 a.m.
    link
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    As a "Plan B" would you be comfortable with "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."?

    Sure. If we're not talking about matrix metering and such.

    Ok, thank you for that 🙂 but in the overwhelming majority of the photos I take I use matrix/evaluative metering and it works well for me. Why doesn't it apply to matrix/evaluative metering?

  • link
    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    May 20, 2023, 12:45 a.m. May 20, 2023, 12:45 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histogram-example-normal-contrast-scene/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-low-contrast-scene-with-specular-highlight/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-high-contrast-scene/

    IanSForsyth likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2420 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:01 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:01 a.m.
    link
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histogram-example-normal-contrast-scene/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-low-contrast-scene-with-specular-highlight/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-high-contrast-scene/

    not a sony camera, as you quoted.

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:10 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:10 a.m.
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    @JimKasson has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    So in the future if I posted something like "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output ~12.5% grey image lightness....", would you be comfortable with that?

    Sounds more cut and dried than it is. Maybe Iliah could give you a range.

    OM-1 is calibrated to less than 7%, that's slightly less than 4 stops down from clipping.

    SrMi likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:14 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:14 a.m.
    link
    @SrMi has written:

    Maybe we should avoid using the term under- or overexposure and instead use darkening/brightening.

    I have proposed that over and underexposure be qualified. For example, underexposed one stop from the exposure that results from metering a gray card.

    SrMi likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:15 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:15 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    not a sony camera, as you quoted.

    I've sold all my Sony cameras.

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:16 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:16 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histogram-example-normal-contrast-scene/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-low-contrast-scene-with-specular-highlight/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-high-contrast-scene/

    not a sony camera, as you quoted.

    You've seen that Adobe are adding 0.35 EV lightness to raw files from your camera to compensate. You've seen that if a scene contains a significant patch of saturated colour (red, for example) the histogram shows clipping where there is none.

    JimKasson likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:18 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:18 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    you need to rework those tests

    Jim is correct.

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

    That you can do, see those screens and raw histograms. Actually, you did, but you are not paying attention.

  • link
    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:20 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:20 a.m.
    link
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    So in the future if I posted something like "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output ~12.5% grey image lightness....", would you be comfortable with that?

    Sounds more cut and dried than it is. Maybe Iliah could give you a range.

    OM-1 is calibrated to less than 7%, that's slightly less than 4 stops down from clipping.

    ok, thank you 🙂 I didn't realise there was such a large range in the calibration of camera meters.

    At this stage I think I'll go with:

    "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."

    Would you be comfortable with that if you saw it in my posts?

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:21 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:21 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:

    6715.JPG

    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    olympus xz1

    That's one of the very few cameras that are calibrated in raw close to the standard.

    Funny that you should say that. because the exposure settings on that camera were always different than any other camera i owned. now i will compare it to my a74.

    just did the test and the A74 and XZ1 histograms maxed out showed the identical exposure. thats awesome. the olympus playback RGB histogram is unbelevabley detailed.

    1465.jpg

    6715 (2).jpg

    1/15 f/3.2 vs. 1/15 f/3.2+1. What's that +1?

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:24 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:24 a.m.
    link
    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    where is everyone getting the idea that incamera histograms are not acurate ?

    In my case, from testing. Here are a few of the cameras I've tested: Sony a7, a7II, a7III, a7R, a7RII, a7RIII, a7RIV, a7S, a7SII, a9, a9II. Nikon D3, D4, D5, D800, D810, D850, Z6, Z7, Z9. Fuji GFX 50S, GFX 50R, GFX 100, GFX 100S.

    seriously Jim, i think you need to rework those tests.

    xz1 studio.jpg

    olympus xz1.JPG

    1/20 on FastRawViewer screenshot, 1/25 on the LCD. Interesting.

    IanSForsyth likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:30 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:30 a.m.
    link
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."

    I think the notion that the calibration of the meters is guided by what the manufacturer wants it to be (and depends on what results in what they think is acceptable image quality) can be made more clear. Same camera may have different calibration for different ISO settings. It's all about what the manufacturer thinks is good enough output.

    TonyBeach likes this.

    favorite 1

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2420 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:49 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:49 a.m.
    link
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    where is everyone getting the idea that incamera histograms are not acurate ?

    In my case, from testing. Here are a few of the cameras I've tested: Sony a7, a7II, a7III, a7R, a7RII, a7RIII, a7RIV, a7S, a7SII, a9, a9II. Nikon D3, D4, D5, D800, D810, D850, Z6, Z7, Z9. Fuji GFX 50S, GFX 50R, GFX 100, GFX 100S.

    seriously Jim, i think you need to rework those tests.

    xz1 studio.jpg

    olympus xz1.JPG

    1/20 on FastRawViewer screenshot, 1/25 on the LCD. Interesting.

    good catch. have no idea will have to look into that.

  • link
    DonaldB
    Members 2420 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:53 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:53 a.m.
    link
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    6715.JPG

    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    olympus xz1

    That's one of the very few cameras that are calibrated in raw close to the standard.

    Funny that you should say that. because the exposure settings on that camera were always different than any other camera i owned. now i will compare it to my a74.

    just did the test and the A74 and XZ1 histograms maxed out showed the identical exposure. thats awesome. the olympus playback RGB histogram is unbelevabley detailed.

    1465.jpg

    6715 (2).jpg

    1/15 f/3.2 vs. 1/15 f/3.2+1. What's that +1?

    will check it out.
    checked it out thats just the over exposure amount form the cameras normal exposure, its not a correction.

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